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Post by Platypus on Dec 29, 2014 2:52:58 GMT
For me, Midnight Blue evokes an image of maudlin sentiment - the guy mooning over his relationship, with a half empty wine bottle in front of him...
The beloved is distant - "so far away" - "I see you cryin'" - "standing there far out..."
He wants to be the one to soothe her pain, but can't find how - "I want to touch you" - "the words that I am never gonna say"
He realizes other sources are going to brighten her life - "I want to (be the one to) touch you but the night becomes the day" (for her)
He concludes that's the way life works - "Everything is Midnight Blue" and he can still see beautiful days because he loves her and can be with her and just be there for her when she emerges from her blues, offering his love even if he can't always be the solution to everything that distresses her.
Musically I think this atmosphere is established by things like the sob in Jeff's vocal rendition, and the delay effect on the vocal, like thoughts echoing around in his head. The lush sliding harmonic structure is also slightly maudlin, and the cheesy little motif on the silvery keyboard is probably starlight, moonbeams or somesuch dreamy nonsense. It's also one of Jeff's clever little hooks, a very simple five note sequence that if isolated would instantly identify the song to you. Like the five at the start of Telephone line.
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 29, 2014 4:03:56 GMT
Wow, Platypus, I'm amazed by how far you went into the interpretation of the lyrics! Who could argue with that? It all seems to make sense.
And good point about the cheesy leit motif of the intro, it's very simple but also very identifiable. Hooks like that are the harder to get.
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tl77
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Post by tl77 on Dec 30, 2014 19:05:54 GMT
I love Midnight Blue. As for chords, the F, Cm/Eb, D7 (which leads to the II chord G minor) is a very common progression in pop music. At least was. I think it's in How Deep Is Your Love as well, for example. But the major 7th on top of the F chord is a nice touch IMO. I think that chordwise the most surprising moment is the F, Cm/A (or Am7b5) in the chorus. WHAT A SONG!!!
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 30, 2014 19:25:50 GMT
I love Midnight Blue. As for chords, the F, Cm/Eb, D7 (which leads to the II chord G minor) is a very common progression in pop music. At least was. I think it's in How Deep Is Your Love as well, for example. But the major 7th on top of the F chord is a nice touch IMO. I think that chordwise the most surprising moment is the F, Cm/A (or Am7b5) in the chorus. WHAT A SONG!!! tl77: I-V-vi is a very common progression (with grade V being major and grade vi being minor), but "Midnight Blue" is I-v-VI and I don't think that's a very common progression at all. And if we add the bass note inversions, the 7ths and maj7s (because the first grade there is used as Fmaj7), I'm sure you won't even find one song like that.
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tl77
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Post by tl77 on Dec 30, 2014 20:33:04 GMT
I love Midnight Blue. As for chords, the F, Cm/Eb, D7 (which leads to the II chord G minor) is a very common progression in pop music. At least was. I think it's in How Deep Is Your Love as well, for example. But the major 7th on top of the F chord is a nice touch IMO. I think that chordwise the most surprising moment is the F, Cm/A (or Am7b5) in the chorus. WHAT A SONG!!! tl77: I-V-vi is a very common progression (with grade V being major and grade vi being minor), but "Midnight Blue" is I-v-VI and I don't think that's a very common progression at all. And if we add the bass note inversions, the 7ths and maj7s (because the first grade there is used as Fmaj7), I'm sure you won't even find one song like that. It's a IV-V7 movement for the II chord in a major key. I've heard it often in pop music. Sometimes it comes after the I chord, sometimes after the III chord in the songs I've heard. How Deep Is Your Love, I think, is in Eb. It has the Eb, Bbm/Db, C7 progression in the chorus that leads to the II chord F minor. The Tie A Yellow ribbon verse goes F, Am, Cm, D7, Gm. Again a IV-V for the II chord, this time in the key of F. Alone Again (naturally) has it. It's in the All By Myself chorus. F, Am, Cm, D7, Gm, Bbm... I think a lot (if not all!) of the songs I've heard that progression in are from the 70's. I've heard both versions of the "IV for the II" chord a lot - root position and the first inversion (like in Midnight Blue). It's very common to go to the II chord from what is a IV-V for that chord. But, like we both said, that sudden maj7 in the tonic in Midnight Blue adds a different, very cool flavor.
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 30, 2014 20:48:13 GMT
Yeah, you are right, I've just checked and "How deep is your love" has that (when it says "'cause we're living in a world of fools, breaking us down"), although, as said previously, in that case it doesn't come from a I grade maj7 (and the V grade has a 6th note added I think, while in MN Jeff doesn't add that 6).
So it's working as a IV grade of the II grade there, huh? That's why it would be minor? Yet, if you make the jump directly from the root note, the V grade minor still sounds weak (much weaker than a V grade major, of course) and not always easy to combine.
As for the second song you named, maybe if you put another chord in the middle (that Am) it's easier to get to the v minor, as it "waters down" the effect of a direct jump from I to v minor.
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tl77
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Post by tl77 on Dec 30, 2014 21:09:54 GMT
Yeah, you are right, I've just checked and "How deep is your love" has that (when it says "'cause we're living in a world of fools, breaking us down"), although, as said previously, in that case it doesn't come from a I grade maj7 (and the V grade has a 6th note added I think, while in MN Jeff doesn't add that 6). So it's working as a IV grade of the II grade there, huh? That's why it would be minor? Yet, if you make the jump directly from the root note, the V grade minor still sounds weak (much weaker than a V grade major, of course) and not always easy to combine. As for the second song you named, maybe if you put another chord in the middle (that Am) it's easier to get to the v minor, as it "waters down" the effect of a direct jump from I to v minor. But I've heard often the version that appears in Midnight Blue too, without the added maj7. It's also in Mission on New World Record. Sort of. The "Watching as the days go by" bit. Although the A major it starts from isn't the tonic. Yeah, the "IV-V for the II" is just my own interpretation of it. The "V to V" or "V to II" or "V to whatever" is common and everyone talks about it (you know, secondary dominant), so I look at that progression as a V to II with the IV preceding the V. If people talk about V/II, then why not II-V/II too. I agree that it doesn't necessarily sound like a IV chord when it comes, but I think it does have the feel of that movement a bit when it has reached the II chord. Like you've been in the key of the II chord for a few seconds. But, however we interpret it (and I can't say that my interpretation is correct, of course), I've heard that movement a lot in pop music from the 70's. It may be treated slightly differently in different cases, but to me it usually has the same feel.
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 30, 2014 23:13:50 GMT
But I've heard often the version that appears in Midnight Blue too, without the added maj7. It's also in Mission on New World Record. Sort of. The "Watching as the days go by" bit. Although the A major it starts from isn't the tonic. Yeah, the "IV-V for the II" is just my own interpretation of it. The "V to V" or "V to II" or "V to whatever" is common and everyone talks about it (you know, secondary dominant), so I look at that progression as a V to II with the IV preceding the V. If people talk about V/II, then why not II-V/II too. I agree that it doesn't necessarily sound like a IV chord when it comes, but I think it does have the feel of that movement a bit when it has reached the II chord. Like you've been in the key of the II chord for a few seconds. But, however we interpret it (and I can't say that my interpretation is correct, of course), I've heard that movement a lot in pop music from the 70's. It may be treated slightly differently in different cases, but to me it usually has the same feel. I'm not an expert of the matter to say wether you are right or wrong, but your interpretation makes sense to me. I've noticed that sometimes in a song on a certain key, there's a bit of the song where, without going out of the scale and without modulating, it's like the chord of reference changed for that bit, as if the reference ceased to be the tonic for a little while and was set to another chord instead (for example, the IV), changing the function of all the other chords consequently. So for the little I know, your explanation makes sense. In any case, thanks for the conversation, I love learning about this. Musicians sometimes are a bit stingy about letting others know what they know so it's good when you find someone who is open to talking about it.
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tl77
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Post by tl77 on Dec 31, 2014 8:49:55 GMT
But I've heard often the version that appears in Midnight Blue too, without the added maj7. It's also in Mission on New World Record. Sort of. The "Watching as the days go by" bit. Although the A major it starts from isn't the tonic. Yeah, the "IV-V for the II" is just my own interpretation of it. The "V to V" or "V to II" or "V to whatever" is common and everyone talks about it (you know, secondary dominant), so I look at that progression as a V to II with the IV preceding the V. If people talk about V/II, then why not II-V/II too. I agree that it doesn't necessarily sound like a IV chord when it comes, but I think it does have the feel of that movement a bit when it has reached the II chord. Like you've been in the key of the II chord for a few seconds. But, however we interpret it (and I can't say that my interpretation is correct, of course), I've heard that movement a lot in pop music from the 70's. It may be treated slightly differently in different cases, but to me it usually has the same feel. I'm not an expert of the matter to say wether you are right or wrong, but your interpretation makes sense to me. I've noticed that sometimes in a song on a certain key, there's a bit of the song where, without going out of the scale and without modulating, it's like the chord of reference changed for that bit, as if the reference ceased to be the tonic for a little while and was set to another chord instead (for example, the IV), changing the function of all the other chords consequently. So for the little I know, your explanation makes sense. In any case, thanks for the conversation, I love learning about this. Musicians sometimes are a bit stingy about letting others know what they know so it's good when you find someone who is open to talking about it. I studied to be a teacher of music theory and stuff at one point, and I taught a bit at the same time. I noticed it isn't my thing, and I got an overdose of secondary dominants and their cousins along the way. You know, "this is the V for II, that is the Neapolitan chord" etc. In the end all that stuff is just simple voice leading. Anyway, the D7 in Midnight Blue would be generally considered a V7 for the II chord (Gm), but the Cm/Eb and D7 together being a IV-V movement for the G minor is just how I personally see it. It never came across in my studies. Probably because it's not as common in famous classical pieces as in famous pop pieces. lol It's weird if musicians sometimes don't like to "give away the secrets". It's music. Nobody owns it.
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Post by moon on Jan 16, 2018 17:13:35 GMT
Hmmmmm I like the song, I really like it! It's sweet even when it sounds a bit sad too... I only can say that it was a minor hit here in Argentina. Lot of songs from Discovery sounded on the radio, starting with Last Train To London & Confusion, and then Don't Bring Me Down. Midnight Blue and Need Her Love were played generally at night, in the "hour for the slow songs" haha.
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Post by eloneen on Jan 16, 2018 18:26:59 GMT
I don't care much for it : too sing-songy and cloying for my tastes. I like the sad songs better.
I think it's good that we fans have diverse tastes within the catalogue of ELO songs! It's also interesting hearing what others like/dislike in songs for which we have the opposite opinion.
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