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Post by tightrope on Mar 21, 2019 1:26:35 GMT
Helmut83 and orioles70 I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating here in this context. If you watch the videos for the acoustic set recorded at Bungalow Palace a few years back, you'll see Jeff and Richard looking at each other the way happily married older couples do.... like they are reliving fond old memories that they've shared over the years, and they don't have to say a word. It's really sweet. You have a way with words my friend.
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Post by jackpunch on Mar 21, 2019 6:58:15 GMT
As for Helmut's suggestion... I am sorry my friend, but I thoroughly disagree that it would be done better without Jeff! Without Jeff, or even any of the other former ELO members, it's not ELO... It's just another cover band. That's exactly the point, BIuebird . These days those guys are there because they are the original band members, and a live show without them playing is just a cover act, it doesn't have the certificate of authenticity that their presence there gives them. Having the original members not only gives the show that certificate of authenticity but also provides you with the emotion of seeing your musical heroes personally, and playing their music, no less. Now, orioles70 's question was whether Jeff would be able to pull off "Time" without Richard Tandy, so it's a question about performance on live shows. I make this question to you, and to everyone else who reacted with "rage" to my opinion: do you really think Jeff couldn't get these days any other keyboardist to perform as good as, or better, than the 71 year old version of Richard Tandy? Do you really think so? Time ago someone posted here the isolated and raw track of Jeff Lynne's guitar during a live show. It was awful. Some fans were in complete negation that that was Jeff Lynne. Others justified his playing with different excuses. In my opinion, the reality is that some skills go deteriorating with age and these days, performance-wise, both Richard Tandy and Jeff Lynne are not a shadow of what they used to be, and someone younger could do it much better. Again, I wouldn't want someone younger and better at performing, I would want my musical heroes to be there even if their performance is not very good (the reason they have such a great backing band is exactly that, to make up for their failures). That's where we can agree. But, answering to Orioles question, if we are talking strictly about performance and leaving personalities aside, I still think these days reality is that lots of people would be able to play the songs much better than Jeff and Richard. I hope my opinion is intepreted better this time and doesn't simply activate the "he's saying something bad about Jeff Lynne" alarm again. It was me that posted Jeff's guitar track from RoB and yep it was absolutely dreadful. So whilst I agree with you entirely that Jeff and Richard are replaceable as musicians, although to be fair that's always been the case as there are plenty of more talented guitarists and keyboards players around, I have problems with someone else singing ELO songs. Just never sounds right to me. Each to their own however.
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Post by Timeblue on Mar 21, 2019 15:58:20 GMT
I was lucky to have been at Wembley 2017 and to hear Prologue into Twilight was spine tingling. Because of Jeff's reluctance to play much from Time,I felt honoured hearing it. Quite why he ignores Time is anyone's guess,Hold On Tight is ELOs 2nd biggest hit and from one of the most popular of ELOs albums.
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Post by Helmut83 on Mar 21, 2019 17:34:57 GMT
Again, I wouldn't want someone younger and better at performing, I would want my musical heroes to be there even if their performance is not very good (the reason they have such a great backing band is exactly that, to make up for their failures). I have problems with someone else singing ELO songs. Just never sounds right to me. Each to their own however. Well, in another paragraph of my post I make it clear that I wouldn't want someone better, I want Jeff and Richard to be there, so I'm no different when it comes to that.
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TIME
Mar 24, 2019 19:16:23 GMT
Post by StrangeMagic on Mar 24, 2019 19:16:23 GMT
That's exactly the point, BIuebird . These days those guys are there because they are the original band members, and a live show without them playing is just a cover act, it doesn't have the certificate of authenticity that their presence there gives them. Having <snip> I hope my opinion is intepreted better this time and doesn't simply activate the "he's saying something bad about Jeff Lynne" alarm again. It was me that posted Jeff's guitar track from RoB and yep it was absolutely dreadful. So whilst I agree with you entirely that Jeff and Richard are replaceable as musicians, although to be fair that's always been the case as there are plenty of more talented guitarists and keyboards players around, I have problems with someone else singing ELO songs. Just never sounds right to me. Each to their own however. Which performance of RoB was it you posted jackpunch? Jeff has played that song almost 600 times.
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TIME
Mar 24, 2019 19:26:29 GMT
Post by Horacewimp on Mar 24, 2019 19:26:29 GMT
It was me that posted Jeff's guitar track from RoB and yep it was absolutely dreadful. So whilst I agree with you entirely that Jeff and Richard are replaceable as musicians, although to be fair that's always been the case as there are plenty of more talented guitarists and keyboards players around, I have problems with someone else singing ELO songs. Just never sounds right to me. Each to their own however. Which performance of RoB was it you posted jackpunch? Jeff has played that song almost 600 times. I think it was the RRHoF performance, it would seem the video or sound track is no longer available, the discussion starts on this thread page and goes onto the next. jefflynneselo.proboards.com/thread/894/elo-jl-covers?page=4
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Post by tightrope on Mar 24, 2019 23:39:10 GMT
Why be that person? What is there to gain by giving something that may or may not be a genuine recording exposure? I had my doubts before and still do but I admit I am biased.
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TIME
Mar 24, 2019 23:45:02 GMT
Post by Helmut83 on Mar 24, 2019 23:45:02 GMT
Why be that person? What is there to gain by giving something that may or may not be a genuine recording exposure? Knowing reality is to be gained. Now my question is: what's there to lose?
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TIME
Mar 24, 2019 23:47:24 GMT
via mobile
Helmut83 likes this
Post by gordonlynne on Mar 24, 2019 23:47:24 GMT
I suspect it's one of the reasons why Jeff Lynne doesn't allow multitrack audio on any concert release since Zoom Tour Live. A clip posted several years ago on YouTube deconstructed the channels and created a 'stripped down' version of Alright—I loved it! However, our favourite musician seems to prefer his work isn't tampered with.
One of the least impressive cases I've seen involved a multi-track rip of a live performance during the AITU promotional tour clearly demonstrating that some of the lead vocals were lip-synced. We best stick to stereo if we're to avoid picking faults in any performance...
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Post by Helmut83 on Mar 25, 2019 6:58:53 GMT
One of the least impressive cases I've seen involved a multi-track rip of a live performance during the AITU promotional tour clearly demonstrating that some of the lead vocals were lip-synced. We best stick to stereo if we're to avoid picking faults in any performance... Exactly. That's something Jeff doesn't seem capable of getting over: live performances have faults, flaws, mistakes, etc... At times those flaws aren't necessarily a bad thing and give the song another flavor. If I, as a fan, wouldn't be OK with that I would never attend a concert and just stay at home listening to the records. I can totally live with a reasonable amount of mistakes, particularly coming from a 71 year old musician. Now, if you are doing lip-sync, that's when I, as a fan, feel I'm being cheated on. That's something I'm not OK with, not at all. I'd be very disappointed if I found out that I spent a hell of a lot of money to attend a concert in which Jeff was lip-synching.
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Post by coathanger on Mar 25, 2019 8:45:14 GMT
One of the least impressive cases I've seen involved a multi-track rip of a live performance during the AITU promotional tour clearly demonstrating that some of the lead vocals were lip-synced. We best stick to stereo if we're to avoid picking faults in any performance... Exactly. That's something Jeff doesn't seem capable of getting over: live performances have faults, flaws, mistakes, etc... At times those flaws aren't necessarily a bad thing and give the song another flavor. If I, as a fan, wouldn't be OK with that I would never attend a concert and just stay at home listening to the records. I can totally live with a reasonable amount of mistakes, particularly coming from a 71 year old musician. Now, if you are doing lip-sync, that's when I, as a fan, feel I'm being cheated on. That's something I'm not OK with, not at all. I'd be very disappointed if I found out that I spent a hell of a lot of money to attend a concert in which Jeff was lip-synching. Having read this thread and finally decided to post something on the forum, I have to say it's refreshing to see some well thought out and considered criticism of this forum's subject matter. It's very important and necessary to have balance regardless of whether others find it uncomfortable, it's what makes for a lively discussion. It's also particularly impressive given that English is not the native tongue of the poster and I'd applaud him for his efforts but sadly.......mi español está muy limitado......and not good enough to return the compliment. It's true to say that the instrumental parts of ELO songs (including the keyboards) are not particularly difficult to mimic by professional, well paid session players, as has been shown to good effect on the recent reboot tours with Take That's backing band replacing previous ELO members. The singing is another matter although I daresay there's somebody out there who could pass himself off favourably as Jeff Lynne on stage if the net was cast wide enough. Live performances are the domain of the brave and always have been, and part of the excitement for me has always been to see how a band copes with the non-studio environment, warts and all. Regardless of which band I'm watching I want it to sound live with all its associated differences' extensions, re-arrangements......and mistakes, otherwise, as Helmut says, I may as well have stayed at home and listened to the songs, saving a king's ransom in ticket prices. As for lip-syncing, it's a disgrace for any act to do it surreptitiously, bordering on fraud IMHO. However, if the act states in advance on its posters and promotional material that lip-syncing will be taking place I have no issue with it, although I doubt they'd sell a lot of tickets........... Interestingly, Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull fame now devolves most of his original singing onstage to another performer these days as he realises he can't quite cut the vocal mustard live anymore. An honest approach and well publicised. Jeff Lynne showed signs of fatigue going back to the seventies when around 50% of his live vocals got given to Kelly Groucutt to sing regardless of who did the original and once again, I have no problem with that. To declare my position of interest in ELO for everybody's consideration, it started with a single purchase (Ma-Ma-Ma Belle on it's original UK release), quickly followed by the retroactive purchase of the first two albums and then the subsequent five in order of release, up to and including 'Out Of The Blue', my favourites being 'Eldorado' and 'A New World Record'. After that it all became a bit too bland and tame for me so I never bought any of the others and although I've tried to get into 'Time', it really doesn't impress me much compared to the earlier work. Still, that's what makes us all different and the world an interesting place. Keep up the good work here!
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Post by Helmut83 on Mar 25, 2019 17:05:24 GMT
Having read this thread and finally decided to post something on the forum, I have to say it's refreshing to see some well thought out and considered criticism of this forum's subject matter. It's very important and necessary to have balance regardless of whether others find it uncomfortable, it's what makes for a lively discussion. It's also particularly impressive given that English is not the native tongue of the poster and I'd applaud him for his efforts but sadly.......mi español está muy limitado......and not good enough to return the compliment. Thanks, man, I appreciate. And hey, your Spanish might be limited but at least you wrote "español" (as opposed to "espanol" or "Espanol") and "está" (instead of "esta"); non-natives usually find it hard to remember those details, so give yourself some credit for that.
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TIME
Mar 28, 2019 4:13:59 GMT
Post by StrangeMagic on Mar 28, 2019 4:13:59 GMT
There are claims on this thread of lip synching in ELO concerts, although the poster wasn't clear about who was doing it. I see claims that there was an isolated lead guitar line from the RRHOF that was "terrible," but the clip has somehow disappeared.
I have seen Richard forget to lean over to the microphone when he was supposed to be lip synching "Please Turn Me Over." On the other hand, I've seen Jeff make scores of vocal mistakes when I was right there in front of him at the concert venue. He wasn't lip synching then.
Jeff has played his guitar solos brilliantly at many concerts. Yes, I know how a guitar is played. No, I'm not very good at it, but Jeff is. I suspect Jeff was pretty wasted at the RRHOF ceremony. He's always been nervous about speaking in front of crowds, and seems to have used alcohol over the years as a way to calm himself. It's hard to play brilliantly when you've had a few too many. Does he ever deserve a break?
I'd say the harm of these public discussions when there is so little evidence presented is the damage they do to Jeff's reputation. People who never comment read it. The message they take away is "Jeff Lynne is a fake." They repeat that to their off line friends.
Let's imagine what you are saying is true. Do you want Jeff's last public years besmirched with controversy and scandal? Do you want him to retreat from the public eye in disgrace?
I don't want that. I'd like to look back on his last years as a triumphant return to playing the music I loved. The music we all love. Please don't spoil it.
Please.
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Post by ShardEnder on Mar 28, 2019 4:33:23 GMT
Jeff's been using pre-recorded elements to augment his live sound going back to the 1970s, and at this point it's no secret within ELO's fanbase that he's something of a perfectionist (who has even survived at least one lawsuit I can think of concerning allegations of the band fully miming, which was never the case). On the other hand, it's become painfully obvious why Richard needed to start lip syncing vocoder parts for his final shows with the group... I'm still heartbroken by that picture of him taken late last year, but if he was happy letting such a revealing image out, then I guess we should be concentrating on the fact he's at least healthy enough to do some minor promotional work, if not yet make a return to performing.
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Post by Horacewimp on Mar 28, 2019 16:42:09 GMT
StrangeMagic I take your points above on board and agree with many of them. Don’t forget this is a forum with many different members and we encourage discussion on all topics ELO related. Therefore sometimes you will get discussions about items or areas of ELOs music or personnel you might not always like or agree with, that’s fine but let’s not suggest it shouldn’t be brought up or pushed under the carpet. I think there is no smoke without fire so if people are suggesting lip syncing let’s listen to their evidence and make up our own minds. If non members visit the forum and read things surely they can also make up their own minds on what is discussed and if they feel it necessary join the forum and add their voice, rather than go off and take everything that’s said as gospel. I would not like to think we have to restrict, moderate or censor some of the members views or comments because without discussion the forum would be no longer viable, the chances of a thread on here damaging Jeff legacy I think is pretty small to non existent.
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