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Post by hoyosenr on Sept 3, 2017 9:07:55 GMT
I guess I agree with you. Both Zoom and AITU seems like such a haphazard collection of songs. Like, okay, these are my latest bits, but no coherent theme or sense of the songs belonging together. Plus, the songs are subpar compared to the good old days. Or are we just nostalgic? Yes, I guess nostalgy is frequently a main drive. I think that one of the worst things you can say to an artist is "as you were/are in ELO you must produce songs that sound like ELO", say ELO, or any other. In other words, before starting playing piano or guitar, fasten your seat belt, slip into your armour and weld it onto the chair.......An artist must be free to express!!!!! A very good example is Pink Floyd, I think. When they (or mainly Roger Waters maybe....) didn't care about the formality, and focused on what they really wanted to express, then The Wall came. When they (mainly Gilmour this time....) focused on "sounding like Floyd", The Division Bell was born. See the results: The Wall vs. The División Bell?? Jesus........ I personally don't want that Jeff comes with an album sounding like, say, Time. I already have Time for that purpose. I want that he makes something that really flows from deep inside him, and of course hoping that I like it.
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Post by pelo on Sept 4, 2017 16:21:03 GMT
I guess I agree with you. Both Zoom and AITU seems like such a haphazard collection of songs. Like, okay, these are my latest bits, but no coherent theme or sense of the songs belonging together. Plus, the songs are subpar compared to the good old days. Or are we just nostalgic? That's funny. Okay, I would have preferred intros and outros and interludes, but there certainly IS a coherent theme for Alone In The Universe (loneliness, being alone in the universe, or, on a second level it's a journey through Jeff's life and musical career), which Jeff has even spoken about. I don't think that you have listened to AITU that much, for, in my opinion, many songs are very reminiscent of classic Eighties ELO (even synthesizers play a considerable role in many songs, in contrast to what some casual listeners claim) And saying that the songs are subpar is rubbish. You just don't get it. I for one can't stop listening to When The Night Comes or the title track, and I love the all the songs and the whole concept of this album (well, it's a little short, maybe).
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 4, 2017 18:19:55 GMT
In my opinion, the wider an artist or band has the ability to sound, the better they are. Most people say about bands "you can recognize it's them immediately" as a good thing. I don't agree with that. That's predictability for me, or not being able to escape their own usual sound. I like multifaceted, chameleonic artist who are able to write songs on the most different styles and make them sound all very different from each other.
The Beatles from Revolver on were awesome in that aspect, if you took two random songs it's likely that you wouldn't have guessed they were the same band. You had the pop band, the hard rockers, the country and western artists, the grannies' music songwriters, the proggie innovators, the romantic singers, etc... all in one and in such quality it was hard to believe they were all the same. As a counterexample, I have some respect for the Ramones but you've got to admit they were a one trick pony. They always did the same stuff and sounded too much like the Ramones all the time.
Where is ELO in all this in my opinion? Well, in the good old times Jeff Lynne was as chameleonic as they come. It's hard to believe 10538, Down Home Town, Oh no not Susan, Yours Truly 2095, Mr Blue Sky, Ma-ma-ma belle and Last Train to London are all the same songwriter and with the same guy singing. The wideness of his sound and the styles he managed is one of the things I admired most of Jeff Lynne. But ever since Armchair Theatre he seems to have lost that ability and he sounds like Jeff Lynne all the time. He has fallen into the "you instantly know it's him" category, which is a pity.
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Post by janne on Sept 4, 2017 19:55:08 GMT
I guess I agree with you. Both Zoom and AITU seems like such a haphazard collection of songs. Like, okay, these are my latest bits, but no coherent theme or sense of the songs belonging together. Plus, the songs are subpar compared to the good old days. Or are we just nostalgic? That's funny. Okay, I would have preferred intros and outros and interludes, but there certainly IS a coherent theme for Alone In The Universe (loneliness, being alone in the universe, or, on a second level it's a journey through Jeff's life and musical career), which Jeff has even spoken about. I don't think that you have listened to AITU that much, for, in my opinion, many songs are very reminiscent of classic Eighties ELO (even synthesizers play a considerable role in many songs, in contrast to what some casual listeners claim) And saying that the songs are subpar is rubbish. You just don't get it. I for one can't stop listening to When The Night Comes or the title track, and I love the all the songs and the whole concept of this album (well, it's a little short, maybe). You're right, that there is a lyrical theme. Musical - not so much. And the songs are way weaker than classic ELO.
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Post by pelo on Sept 4, 2017 21:03:14 GMT
In my opinion, the wider an artist or band has the ability to sound, the better they are. Most people say about bands "you can recognize it's them immediately" as a good thing. I don't agree with that. That's predictability for me, or not being able to escape their own usual sound. I like multifaceted, chameleonic artist who are able to write songs on the most different styles and make them sound all very different from each other. The Beatles from Revolver on were awesome in that aspect, if you took two random songs it's likely that you wouldn't have guessed they were the same band. You had the pop band, the hard rockers, the country and western artists, the grannies' music songwriters, the proggie innovators, the romantic singers, etc... all in one and in such quality it was hard to believe they were all the same. As a counterexample, I have some respect for the Ramones but you've got to admit they were a one trick pony. They always did the same stuff and sounded too much like the Ramones all the time. Where is ELO in all this in my opinion? Well, in the good old times Jeff Lynne was as chameleonic as they come. It's hard to believe 10538, Down Home Town, Oh no not Susan, Yours Truly 2095, Mr Blue Sky, Ma-ma-ma belle and Last Train to London are all the same songwriter and with the same guy singing. The wideness of his sound and the styles he managed is one of the things I admired most of Jeff Lynne. But ever since Armchair Theatre he seems to have lost that ability and he sounds like Jeff Lynne all the time. He has fallen into the "you instantly know it's him" category, which is a pity. Soundwise, almost all of Jeff Lynne's original albums are conceptual pieces. (You can't really take into consideration his production work for other artists here because Lynne was often asked to make use of a certain sound.) You won't find two albums with exactly the same approach in that respect, but on the other hand, there was always a "Jeff Lynne sound" which changed gradually. In my opinion, Armchair Theatre, Zoom and AITU are quite different. With Armchair Theatre Jeff made a conscious effort to sound nothing like classic ELO. Zoom, however, was his attempt to combine this Wilburysh AT approach with elements of the classic ELO era. It's also far more edgy than Armchair Theatre. AITU is also unique in that it sees Jeff revisit classic Eighties ELO (the slower or ambient songs), filtered through his more recent production methods and at the same time adding some early Sixties nostalgia inspired by his Long wave project.
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Post by fernandoamado on Sept 5, 2017 3:36:26 GMT
AITU is a great album. I love it and it's one of my top choices. But when one has to be critic, fanatism has to take a step back. When I Was a Boy (which I think is the ultimate ELO composition) is lovely, but Jeff produced it the very same way he had produced songs like She, on Long Wave, or Ordinary Dream (apart from the fact that they share some bars!!). A piano doing that simple 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and ryhtm, simple acoustic guitar, simple bass and quiet synth-orchestra. No choir this time but himself doing an additional voice. Anyway, the song delivers maybe one of the best emotions ever. Love and Rain is, as many songs in the album, a new best-of. But, again being critical, it has something of Showdown, the power chords, the "it's raining blood" atmosphere; though you can enjoy it nontheless and has that lovely bridge which turns the song in a beautiful paradigm of love. It's maybe the only song where Jeff's horrible drum mix sounds great. Dirty to the Bone is the first step back. It has a very nostalgic sound which I love, but the song is completely banal. And the cowbell too. Jeff forgot to sing it with passion. When the Night Comes is a good one, but suffers from perfection. The reggae guitar ALWAYS falls perfectly in place. The ELO "response-singers" (those little Jeffs who answer the leading Jeff, main singer) lack an extra high voice which I know Jeff can reach. And it suffers from that drum. That drum... The Sun Will Shine on You is pure gold. Ain't it a Drag suffers from... You got it, drum mix. All My Life is 90% gold and it suffers from... Drum mix. I'm Leaving You is another greatest hit, but being critical, it has the same ffff chords as When I Was a Boy. One Step at a Time could've been a summer hit, but the drum mix set it off. Alone in the Universe is pure gold, perfectly executed. Fault Line is banal. Blue is banal. On My Mind is very interesting, but hell man you know is Lonesome Lullaby!
The album is far superior than Zoom, Balance of Power and maybe one of their early ones, but it has something undeniable: Poor lyrics. Only When I Was a Boy, The Sun Will Shine on You, One Step at a Time and On My Mind survive the test of lyrics. What happened to those lovely, enigmatic words Jeff used to write, like those on Ticket to the Moon and Just for Love?
The second big mistake is drums. Not only the mix. The decision of playing them himself (in that drum-loop way which makes it sound as MIDI) is basically taking away potential quality. i recommend listening to Night in the City. Listen to Bevan playing many different rythms and ideas on the same song. This lets you distinguish different parts of the song and make them have an identity. On many AITU and Zoom songs, Jeff doesn't use this weapon.
The third mistake is technical and I can't quite describe it, but I feel it has something to do with the mastering. Maybe a young, 21st century engineer should replace the one working for Jeff.
I read Helmut said something like "Jeff's still a good producer but not a good songwriter anymore".
I disagree. I'd have it the other way around: Jeff is still a super great songwriter. He can use the same chord progression and still create ten different songs, all of them better than everything on the Top 20 today. But he has lost interesting in producing BIG.
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Post by ash2 on Sept 5, 2017 5:01:26 GMT
In my opinion, the wider an artist or band has the ability to sound, the better they are. Most people say about bands "you can recognize it's them immediately" as a good thing. I don't agree with that. That's predictability for me, or not being able to escape their own usual sound. I like multifaceted, chameleonic artist who are able to write songs on the most different styles and make them sound all very different from each other. The Beatles from Revolver on were awesome in that aspect, if you took two random songs it's likely that you wouldn't have guessed they were the same band. You had the pop band, the hard rockers, the country and western artists, the grannies' music songwriters, the proggie innovators, the romantic singers, etc... all in one and in such quality it was hard to believe they were all the same. As a counterexample, I have some respect for the Ramones but you've got to admit they were a one trick pony. They always did the same stuff and sounded too much like the Ramones all the time. Where is ELO in all this in my opinion? Well, in the good old times Jeff Lynne was as chameleonic as they come. It's hard to believe 10538, Down Home Town, Oh no not Susan, Yours Truly 2095, Mr Blue Sky, Ma-ma-ma belle and Last Train to London are all the same songwriter and with the same guy singing. The wideness of his sound and the styles he managed is one of the things I admired most of Jeff Lynne. But ever since Armchair Theatre he seems to have lost that ability and he sounds like Jeff Lynne all the time. He has fallen into the "you instantly know it's him" category, which is a pity. This ^^^^
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 5, 2017 17:22:36 GMT
I read Helmut said something like "Jeff's still a good producer but not a good songwriter anymore". I disagree. I'd have it the other way around: Jeff is still a super great songwriter. He can use the same chord progression and still create ten different songs Are you so sure he has that ability of making songs over similar progressions sound so different? It's hard not to notice "Showdown" in "Love and Rain", as it is not noticing "Can't get it out of my Head" in "Alone in the Universe", to name two off the top of my head. Regardless of whether he still has that particular ability or not, personally nothing of his 2010s stuff has moved me much, other than "Forecast", "Dirty to the bone" and to a lesser extent "Ain't it a drag". That's why for me he has lost much of his touch it as a songwriter, but of course that's personal. The album is far superior than Zoom, Balance of Power and maybe one of their early ones, but it has something undeniable: Poor lyrics. This for me is a non-factor. Me not being a fan of AITU is not based on it's lyrics (I never cared much about them) but on it's musical aspect (melody, chords, overall harmony).
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 5, 2017 17:35:19 GMT
Soundwise, almost all of Jeff Lynne's original albums are conceptual pieces. Do you think so? I don't see much of that in Face the Music for example, where you can find together a proggy piece like Fire on High, a country song like Down Home Town, a punk-rock tune like Poker, a sweet ballad like One Summer Dream and a pop sugary song like Strange Magic, all sounding very different. I see nothing of conceptual there, no relation between the different songs.
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Post by fernandoamado on Sept 5, 2017 18:03:09 GMT
I read Helmut said something like "Jeff's still a good producer but not a good songwriter anymore". I disagree. I'd have it the other way around: Jeff is still a super great songwriter. He can use the same chord progression and still create ten different songs Are you so sure he has that ability of making songs over similar progressions sound so different? It's hard not to notice "Showdown" in "Love and Rain", as it is not noticing "Can't get it out of my Head" in "Alone in the Universe", to name two off the top of my head. Regardless of whether he still has that particular ability or not, personally nothing of his 2010s stuff has moved me much, other than "Forecast", "Dirty to the bone" and to a lesser extent "Ain't it a drag". That's why for me he has lost much of his touch it as a songwriter, but of course that's personal. The album is far superior than Zoom, Balance of Power and maybe one of their early ones, but it has something undeniable: Poor lyrics. This for me is a non-factor. Me not being a fan of AITU is not based on it's lyrics (I never cared much about them) but on it's musical aspect (melody, chords, overall harmony). Well, that's not very accurate. Showdown composition goes like this: Verse: 4/4: (i, i, v, v, iv, iv, i, i) x 2 Chorus: (4/4: v, v, iv, iv) x 2 + (2/2: V, Vb9) + (4/4: i,i) Love and Rain, on the other hand, goes: Verse: (4/4: i, i, i, i, iv) + (2/2: iv/V5) + 4/4: i, i Chorus: 4/4: i, iisus2/vii, vimaj7, vsus4 The 4/4 and 2/2 is not exact but a choice of mine to break bars which have two chords in it. A lower-case letter is a minor chord and a upper-case a major chord. You can see they're different compositions, Love and Rain being more complex and interesting than Showdown. Besides, I didn't talk about Love and Rain's bridge, which makes a modal shift to major, whereas Showdown uses that epic middle-break. Yes, both of them are based on i, iv and v steps, but the compositions are very distinct. In fact, Evil Woman employs the same three chords: first minor, fifth minor and fourth minor, only that with a seventh note added to each grade. Now, Alone in the Universe shares the first two chord changes with "Can't Get It..." Both if them start on C major for two bars, go to A minor for two bars and go to F major for a bar. Here they separate. "Can't Get" goes to a ii minor (relatuve minor of the IV grade: the F major), IV and then splits a bar between vi and V. The chorus is a simple I, V/i, IV/i, V/i. AITU, when it reaches the F major, goes to F minor, changing the mode and returns to I major with bass in the fifth. Then it shares a bar between V/iv with bass on the major third (another modal change) and reaches the iv (the same haooened on Stepoin' Out). It repeats the F major/F minor/C with bass on G and reaches a Vsus4 which never resolves. And the coda changes the mode endlessly. Lovely. Eighty times a better song. I mean, you can't say two songs are equal because they share the same 3 chords at the beggining. On the other hand, Jeff uses the same chord progressions for many songs and nobody ever sees it!
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Post by fernandoamado on Sept 5, 2017 18:11:42 GMT
And talking about the conceptusl stuff, ELO as a band was a conceptual thing. The first album is a conceptual album about classical compositions meeting rock ones. On the Third day has a religious conceptual connection between many songs, Eldorado is a concept album, Concerto for a Rainy Day, Time are concept albums or sides, and the last concept MAY be on Secret Messages, about being stuck and nostalgic in a moment of your career/life (Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Stranger/Letter from Spain/Hello My Old Friend). End of it. AITU album is not a concept album about being alone. AITU song IS. AITU album is not s conceot album of revisiting one's career. WIWAB song IS.
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Post by pelo on Sept 5, 2017 18:24:09 GMT
Soundwise, almost all of Jeff Lynne's original albums are conceptual pieces. Do you think so? I don't see much of that in Face the Music for example, where you can find together a proggy piece like Fire on High, a country song like Down Home Town, a punk-rock tune like Poker, a sweet ballad like One Summer Dream and a pop sugary song like Strange Magic, all sounding very different. I see nothing of conceptual there, no relation between the different songs. I am not saying that FTM is a concept album (it is not); also, I agree that there is a lot of variety with regard to the types of songs. But as far as sound and production is concerned, Jeff basically used the same approach for all the songs.
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Post by pelo on Sept 5, 2017 18:30:32 GMT
And talking about the conceptusl stuff, ELO as a band was a conceptual thing. The first album is a conceptual album about classical compositions meeting rock ones. On the Third day has a religious conceptual connection between many songs, Eldorado is a concept album, Concerto for a Rainy Day, Time are concept albums or sides, and the last concept MAY be on Secret Messages, about being stuck and nostalgic in a moment of your career/life (Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Stranger/Letter from Spain/Hello My Old Friend). End of it. AITU album is not a concept album about being alone. AITU song IS. AITU album is not s conceot album of revisiting one's career. WIWAB song IS. I wouldn't call it a concept album in the narrow sense, but there certainly is a unifying theme, which Jeff himself pointed out. Jeff: I did intend it to be like a unified piece of work [Caroline Martin] But this record, Alone In The Universe, is about exactly that: being the loneliest thing in the universe. The songs on this album are all about loneliness and stuff like that. And I got it, really, by thinking back to my favourites when I was a kid. […]So I tried to do one with a twist on this album. 'I'm Leaving You', that is. Cos she says she's leaving him, all the way through, then he says 'Ah, actually, got some news for you, mate.' That type of thing. But I do love lonely songs. Love 'em.(Quietus)
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Post by fernandoamado on Sept 5, 2017 18:36:54 GMT
And talking about the conceptusl stuff, ELO as a band was a conceptual thing. The first album is a conceptual album about classical compositions meeting rock ones. On the Third day has a religious conceptual connection between many songs, Eldorado is a concept album, Concerto for a Rainy Day, Time are concept albums or sides, and the last concept MAY be on Secret Messages, about being stuck and nostalgic in a moment of your career/life (Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Stranger/Letter from Spain/Hello My Old Friend). End of it. AITU album is not a concept album about being alone. AITU song IS. AITU album is not s conceot album of revisiting one's career. WIWAB song IS. I wouldn't call it a concept album in the narrow sense, but there certainly is a unifying theme, which Jeff himself pointed out. Jeff: I did intend it to be like a unified piece of work [Caroline Martin] But this record, Alone In The Universe, is about exactly that: being the loneliest thing in the universe. The songs on this album are all about loneliness and stuff like that. And I got it, really, by thinking back to my favourites when I was a kid. […]So I tried to do one with a twist on this album. 'I'm Leaving You', that is. Cos she says she's leaving him, all the way through, then he says 'Ah, actually, got some news for you, mate.' That type of thing. But I do love lonely songs. Love 'em.(Quietus) I can't see the way that unifying theme links Dirty to the Bone (an evil woman), The Sun Will Shine on You (an advice), Ain't it a Drag (a beatle merseybeat), All My Life (I'm in love), I'm Leaving You (I won't be alone but actually with somebody else), One Step at a Time (I'm going to get you girl), Fault Line (hey I live in California) and Blue (what the hell does this song mean anyway).
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Post by pelo on Sept 5, 2017 18:41:33 GMT
I read Helmut said something like "Jeff's still a good producer but not a good songwriter anymore". I disagree. I'd have it the other way around: Jeff is still a super great songwriter. He can use the same chord progression and still create ten different songs Are you so sure he has that ability of making songs over similar progressions sound so different? It's hard not to notice "Showdown" in "Love and Rain", as it is not noticing "Can't get it out of my Head" in "Alone in the Universe", to name two off the top of my head. Regardless of whether he still has that particular ability or not, personally nothing of his 2010s stuff has moved me much, other than "Forecast", "Dirty to the bone" and to a lesser extent "Ain't it a drag". That's why for me he has lost much of his touch it as a songwriter, but of course that's personal. Of course there are similarities, and they were even intended, but Love And Rain Is not the same song as Showdown at all. Also, the chorus reminds me much more of the spherical soundscapes of Eighties ELO. If you consider Love And Rain a mee rewrite, you could just as well say that Sorrow About To Fall is the same song as Showdown. Nonsense. Is The Way Life's Meant To Be The same song as Acros The Border? Do you think Four Little Diamonds is Don't Bring Me Down Part Two? As you can see, writing songs in the same style as older songs is nothing new for Jeff, it's quite typical. And no, I don't think that On My Mind was left off the album because it sounds too similar to Lonesome Lullaby. IMHO, it does not.
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