10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 10, 2017 1:30:23 GMT
Any of you fine folks into 8 tracks? Being a little(!) older, I had plenty a long time ago, especially in the car when that was the common way to get your own music on the road over here (USA). Yesterday, I ran across a gold mine of old rock 8 tracks in really good shape, including 2 of ELO: A New World Record and Out Of The Blue. Btw, I already have On The Third Day and Face The Music in this antique format. Listening to OOTB now, and wowie zowie, is that a strange order of tracks! Plus there's a couple songs where it starts and plays maybe 1/3 way through, track change, and the song starts over! I know many albums are this way and I'd imagine the boys wanted to have the complete songs on there which is cool and unique. I'm not sure I ever heard one quite like this where that much of the song is repeated. Way back when, I also had an 8 track recorder and was surprised to find out when one records them, it's just a very brief pause when the tracks change unlike the often slowly fade down and out, pause, click, pause, slowly fade back in (plus the hiss!) of pre-recorded tapes. There's still a handful of albums I still listen to in the 8 track order because that was the sole format I had them on originally. Fragile by Yes and Jazz by Queen are the two big one's of those for me. I reordered the tracks for my mp3 albums. Yesterday, I actually found that Yes tape which I just had to get! I wonder why I tend to forget how 8 tracks are, with the limitations in sound and not very stable. When I got my FTM tape a couple years ago, the machine ate it, but I just had to rescue it (because it's ELO!!) and I ended up completely unspooling all the tape and winding it all back again. That took a LONG time! I did fix it and it works. Thankfully, my latest finds are in great shape. Anyway, listening to this tonight, thought I'd jump on this most excellent site with people with like musical tastes and see if any of you like/have/what you think of 8 tracks. In the old days, I thought they sounded great, and they do have a unique sound to them even now, but I wouldn't want that as my only format for any of my music. Overall, I think they can be fun when they work, but also a big pain when they don't. Just like all technology. Yours Truly, 10538
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Post by BSJ on Aug 11, 2017 23:04:39 GMT
@105388, 8 track cartridge! The only sound that comes to mind is the sound of one being thrown on top of a massive pile of them in the back seat of an old boyfriends car. Mmmmmmmm..... Don't know anything about ELO cartridges, so interesting reading OOTB is played out of order, correct?, and other quirks of the tape. An 8 track recorder? Really? Feel you should be given the "ELO FAN OF THE WEEK" pin, for rescuing FTM! FTM is a HUGE favorite of mine, so I'll give ya two of 'em.
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10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 12, 2017 0:19:42 GMT
thanks! I graciously accept those pins! Not only is OOTB out of LP order, so is FTM and ANWR. OTTD, however, is the same, but the one I have is the one with Jeff on the cover with the planet (WB), not like your avatar version (UA-I think).
yeah, they are kind of a mess, but they were pretty big over here for about 10-15 years. They have a certain charm/character to them and are getting harder and harder to find so I couldn't pass up that opportunity the other day!
cheers, 10538
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Post by BSJ on Aug 12, 2017 0:30:10 GMT
10538, I see them at record shows going for decent prices. It's hard finding one without the label torn and mashed off. I can't start collecting them. No room for the buggers! Do you know why the songs are out of order?
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 13, 2017 14:18:27 GMT
10538 , I see them at record shows going for decent prices. It's hard finding one without the label torn and mashed off. I can't start collecting them. No room for the buggers! Do you know why the songs are out of order? This has been troubling me for some time (not 8tracks, I'm afraid, but cassettes) - in particular ANWR, OOTB & Discovery (wots the abbrev for Discovery?)
I've been researching this for a while, as I grew up with cassettes; consequently they are the 'normal version' to me. It's a confusing life.
For decades I have assumed that the different track order on these three albums/tapes was simply for the sake of making the two sides of equal time length (important for cass & 8track, to prevent a long 'playout' on the end of side 1) - however my recent investigations have shown me that this is simply not true.
I am now leaning towards the assumption (based on almost no facts, because there is almost no info out there about the tape versions of late 70s & early 80s albums) that the vinyl (especially the singles) versions were released first; then the tape versions were released with the track order "informed" by the popularity of the vinyl editions; ie the cassette would lead off with a high-rating song - and keep a couple of hit tracks for the end (the cassette version of ANWR has 'Telephone Line' as the last track on side 2). Of course 'Time' (being a concept album with a definite sequence of songs telling a story) put an end to that. Plus after Discovery, JL insisted on ending each album with a 'rocker'; so such fiddling with the track order ceased. Anyone else got some theories?
(Theories, theories - get your loverly bags of theories! Ten for a Tenner! Get 'em while their hot!).
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10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 15, 2017 1:48:11 GMT
Friends,
I believe it is simply a space issue. If you've recorded on tape for a long time like I have, you know that one of the biggest challenges is not running out of tape. Modern equivalent: hard drive space. Well, that's even pushing it anymore, how about SD card space!
Babyzoomer, everything was pretty much released at the same time back in the old days. Stuff would be available on LP or 8 track cartridge tape, and later on LP, Cassette, or 8 Track. They usually used to charge a dollar more for tape!
With 4 tracks, it's like having 4 sides to an LP (or 4 small SD cards) and the record companies wanted to fit as much as possible on each track with as little blank space as necessary. Rearranging tracks for time was the way to do this. I also think it was more of a record company thing than a recording artist thing.
WELL... I'm afraid I'm showing my age in this thread! Dang, I'm getting up there! What's worse is I FORGET how much they actually suck. Tried to listen to my Yes tape tonight and it's all muddy and sounds like crap. Then another one I picked up last week I probably wanted the most is an Alice Cooper which some bad person recorded a country LP over it. Sacrilegious!
Now with a collection of over 50 mostly decent rock 8's, I think I should have enough... til I forget again! lol
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 15, 2017 5:30:54 GMT
With cassettes, the usual cause of muddy or 'soft' tapes is that the little felt pad (mounted on a springy copper backing plate) which presses the tape against the tape head has fallen off. When transcribing my collection to digital a decade or two ago, I frequently had to carefully superglue them back in place. If I remember correctly (forgive me but I ain't seen an 8-track cartridge in over 4 decades - and were never popular in Oz anyway) the job of keeping tape pressed against head with 8track is performed by a foam pad. Perhaps the foam has deteriorated over those decades (I know I have!).
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 15, 2017 5:54:39 GMT
Ok I've done a quick summation of OOTB track lengths. On the original vinyl, disc one has 34mins01secs (A side plus B side). Disc two has 36mins26secs. So the simple act of swapping "The Whale" (5.05) for "Jungle" (3.52) evens the two discs out to 35.10 each - which is what is done for the original cassette version, meaning there is virtually no run-out on either side of the cassette (and yes no tape is wasted). Well done 10538.
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 15, 2017 13:42:03 GMT
Ok next for ANWR. The original vinyl timings - side A 17min14sec, side B 19min02secs. Unacceptable time difference for pennypinching record companies (or indeed if they wanted to avoid a boring 'runout' at the end of side 1. By swapping 'Shangri-La' from the end of side 2 to the end of side 1, and moving 'Telephone Line' to the end of side 2; the timings became side 1: 18.10 and side 2: 17.52 ie a more acceptable quarter minute difference (with the runout on side 2).
But in doing so the whole meaning of ANWR (yes it was somewhat vague) is lost! I doubt JL had much to do with this decision; but then (in 1976) perhaps he considered cassettes to be a sideline of the main (vinyl) game. Interestingly, the major hit - and a very enduring one (Telephone Line) ends the tape version; encouraging people to listen right to the end. Next comes Discovery (another time).
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 15, 2017 23:05:04 GMT
(With apologies to 10538 for abusing this thread)
OK Discovery - vinyl - side 1 17min 53secs, side 2 21min 01secs; you would think this was unacceptable for cassette because of the time difference, especially since the long run-out would be at the end of side one. But here's the thing, the cassette version uses the SAME track listing as the vinyl. Maybe because of the fact that some tracks fade into the next one, or because of the release of the videos; or maybe by then tape was so cheap (and enough people had sophisticated cassette players with 'find the next track' function). Or perhaps the record industry had just got over it all. Trying to carve up a vinyl album to fit on the two sides of a cassette is hard enough; trying to divide into FOUR equal tracks (for 8track) would be impossible.
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Post by babyzoomer on Aug 16, 2017 13:16:35 GMT
Sorry but I never owned tape versions of OTTD, Eld or FTM.... (we were so poor we lived in 'ole in road) - so I can't do tape/vinyl comparos for them...Anyone?
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10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 19, 2017 2:19:25 GMT
With cassettes, the usual cause of muddy or 'soft' tapes is that the little felt pad (mounted on a springy copper backing plate) which presses the tape against the tape head has fallen off. When transcribing my collection to digital a decade or two ago, I frequently had to carefully superglue them back in place. If I remember correctly (forgive me but I ain't seen an 8-track cartridge in over 4 decades - and were never popular in Oz anyway) the job of keeping tape pressed against head with 8track is performed by a foam pad. Perhaps the foam has deteriorated over those decades (I know I have!). Hi, So you're in OZ-that's cool. My Mrs. is from there. We live in the USA. Anyway, the DIY replacement for those pads is weather stripping. I've done this many times and it works, but it's usually a matter of cutting it to size with a very sharp single edge razor blade. cheers, 10538
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10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 19, 2017 2:21:04 GMT
Ok I've done a quick summation of OOTB track lengths. On the original vinyl, disc one has 34mins01secs (A side plus B side). Disc two has 36mins26secs. So the simple act of swapping "The Whale" (5.05) for "Jungle" (3.52) evens the two discs out to 35.10 each - which is what is done for the original cassette version, meaning there is virtually no run-out on either side of the cassette (and yes no tape is wasted). Well done 10538. I didn't even realize this was done with cassettes! All my original ELO was on vinyl. thanks
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10538
Junior Member
Posts: 16
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Post by 10538 on Aug 19, 2017 2:35:13 GMT
no worries babyzoomer, you're not abusing here, this is what forums are for!
Here's what I got:
On The Third Day- normal sequence
Face The Music- Track: 1- Fire On High, Poker 2- Evil Woman, Night Rider 3- Waterfall, One Summer Dream 4- One Summer Dream (cont'd), Strange Magic, Down Home Town
A New World Record- 1- Tightrope, Mission 2- So Fine, Livin' Thing, Above The Clouds 3- Above The Clouds (cont'd), Telephone Line, Rockaria! 4- Do Ya, Shangri-La
Out Of The Blue- 1- Turn To Stone, It's Over, Sweet Talkin' Woman, Across The Border, The Whale 2- The Whale (cont'd), Sweet Is The Night, Wild West Hero, Jungle, Night In The City 3- Night In The City (cont'd), Starlight, Believe Me Now, Steppin' Out, Birmingham Blues 4- Standin' In The Rain, Big Wheels, Summer and Lightning, Mr. Blue Sky
Having listened to these albums since the late 70's, you can imagine how mixed up it sounds, yet I've listened to my FTM 8 track many times since getting it a couple years ago. That was one of my deep rescues where I literally ended up unwinding ALL the tape from the spool and totally rebuilding it.
It works in reverse too because a few albums especially Yes-Fragile and Queen-Jazz are forever embedded in my head in the 8 track order which is very different from the LP. Since getting those on LP, it still sounds out of order on them so on my mp3s I rearranged the tracks in the 8 track order.
I seriously tend to forget the downfalls of 8 tracks when I see decent stuff like this. Makes me appreciate the digital age!
best wishes, 10538
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