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Post by starlight on Nov 15, 2015 13:56:41 GMT
I see some photos from the recording sessions of secret messages has been posted on youtube from the Chairman of the ELO Dutch fan club which would make a great addition to the book, including some shots of Dave Morgan
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Post by ShardEnder on Nov 15, 2015 18:30:09 GMT
I see some photos from the recording sessions of secret messages has been posted on youtube from the Chairman of the ELO Dutch fan club which would make a great addition to the book, including some shots of Dave Morgan Would you mind sharing a link to this? I'm naturally very fascinated to learn pictures from the Wisseloord sessions exist (as I've previously only found just one, which I can't find again)...
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Post by starlight on Nov 15, 2015 18:51:18 GMT
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Post by ShardEnder on Nov 15, 2015 22:58:55 GMT
Those pictures really are a goldmine, and it's strange to see visual confirmation of something I'd already been told - that Dave Morgan was more involved with the Secret Messages sessions than Kelly Groucutt (despite the resulting album credits suggesting their roles were the other way around). If only someone could identify the mixing board and recording equipment seen in quite a few of the pictures, as that might help me determine the exact room ELO recorded in at Wisseloord... Unfortunately, a lot of their paperwork was lost when the studios changed hands a few years ago, with liner notes providing well-needed clues as to who had been there in the past. Due to a combination of having to secure permission and in some cases even licensing copyrighted material being outside what my publisher is willing to pay for, I won't be able to include such photographs in my book. Still, I'm hoping the exclusive information I've been able to find can make up for such shortcomings.
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Post by erchie on Nov 23, 2015 10:27:52 GMT
Despite there not being that much previously known about the Time period, I've managed to find out some truly fascinating details through my interviews and research, including specifics relating to a previously undocumented early acetate that had a very slightly different running order - it's hardly a bombshell on the level of the original Secret Messages double album sequencing, but still fascinating nonetheless (and something very possible for we hardcore fans to assemble using just the 2001 remastered edition, I should add)! I'd happily reveal more at this point, only I'm still learning a few things myself and it's not as if I can really do justice to such a lengthy subject without literally giving you all a considerable portion of my work for nothing. I hate to be that person, only I'm currently in negotiations with my publisher* about possibly releasing this book through them, and sneak previews may jeopardise its chances, as they've insisted that I don't leak anything from my other projects. Sorry... I understand if prefer not to answer this, but have you found any information about the abandoned intro to "Hold On Tight" released on Flashback? BTW, I'm really glad you're extending the book to include all 80's ELO output, because so little is known of this era.
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Post by ShardEnder on Nov 23, 2015 19:31:42 GMT
There isn't much to say about that little piece except that it wasn't on the early Time acetate (because Hold On Tight didn't exist when this was pressed), being an intended link from the end of 21st Century Man that was dropped in favour of a hard edit because of an error that couldn't be corrected to Jeff's satisfaction... After the last chime, you can hear that one of the many keyboard overdubs comes in a fraction too early, though it's quickly silenced. My guess is that this particular section was being manipulated in some way - perhaps even performed - "live" as the master was being produced, similar to how the EQ on Jeff's voice at the beginning of Telephone Line was added directly onto a disc as this was being cut.
I'll agree that information about the '80s albums is scarce, and I can imagine some of the research I've put together revealing a picture that not all fans will be able to happily accept. For example, we already know that the credits for Secret Messages still have Kelly Groucutt as a full member of ELO and downplay the fact that Bev Bevan was now mostly unnecessary due to the sheer amount of drum machines being used, but what about the suggestion that Jeff took over the bass as early as the Discovery sessions? If the whole Time project was intended as a reactionary move away from the increasingly slick direction the band had taken in the mid-to-late 1970s, why did they continue to record at Musicland in Munich before suddenly looking for a new studio? What I will say at this point is there was a brief falling out between Jeff and Reinhold Mack, which ended with the former go-to engineer initially returning in an advisory capacity to offer his input on the heavily-delayed Balance Of Power, resulting in Jeff asking for help to find a satisfactory middle ground between personal taste and those of concerned executives at CBS.
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Post by erchie on Nov 24, 2015 10:14:24 GMT
Thanks for your reply. I've always found that intro fascinating and I think it would've fit the album very well. It sets up Hold On Tight in a completely new way and turns Hold On Tight more than a mere fun rockabilly album closer. As for the role of Kelly, he still played a big part in the group vocally up until 1982. There's a lot of high harmonies on Time that let him shine. I was just listening to the bootleg from Wembley '81 the other day and noticed that Kelly had a lot more lead vocal duties than in the '78 show. Tours must have been the main source of income for members of ELO not named Jeff or Bev. Thus, he was probably fairly happy of his position in the group as long as there were going to be live tours in the horizon, having his own solo thing going on as well at the time. Later ELO Part II years showed that Kelly was always the live guy and even played minor roles on Moment Of Truth and No Rewind albums. I can imagine Kelly's frustration in 1983 hearing that there wouldn't be a tour for at least a year or two... BTW, have you noticed that the RadioELO podcasts are nowadays in Google Drive in 128 bitrate (as opposed to 64 kb/s of the original site). It doesn't turn that one bonus track exacly CD quality, but an improvement of some sort nevertheless. drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzMAC9-5bLxKTEJmYV91ZmZ4UGM&usp=sharing
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Post by ShardEnder on Nov 24, 2015 17:48:39 GMT
Tours must have been the main source of income for members of ELO not named Jeff or Bev. Thus, he was probably fairly happy of his position in the group as long as there were going to be live tours in the horizon, having his own solo thing going on as well at the time. Later ELO Part II years showed that Kelly was always the live guy and even played minor roles on Moment Of Truth and No Rewind albums. I can imagine Kelly's frustration in 1983 hearing that there wouldn't be a tour for at least a year or two... BTW, have you noticed that the RadioELO podcasts are nowadays in Google Drive in 128 bitrate (as opposed to 64 kb/s of the original site). It doesn't turn that one bonus track exacly CD quality, but an improvement of some sort nevertheless. drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzMAC9-5bLxKTEJmYV91ZmZ4UGM&usp=sharingI'd hardly say that touring was a major source of income, as Kelly only claimed to be paid a salary of £11,747 at the time he sued Jet Records. Roy Wood has also suggested that he was the only member of Wizzard being paid by the end of that band, plus it's known that various members of ELO - including Jeff himself - had faced the shame (and occasional threats of physical violence) that came with begging Don Arden for a raise. I'm guessing that Bev probably received more than Richard, being an equal shareholder in the band's name, with Jeff taking the majority. As for how the likes of Louis Clark or Mik Kaminski were treated financially, it's really hard to say. Lou probably made quite a decent amount through Hooked On Classics, and Dave Morgan's said in the past that he received a modest yet comfortable wage. Naturally, this aspect isn't something you'll find anyone involved with the band speaking about often. As part of the initial agreement made that enabled Bev to continue ELO under the Part II name, Jeff supposedly insisted that Kelly wasn't involved with any resulting studio material, though he did eventually modify his original agreement when it became clear that Groucutt was regularly joining the group on stage along with his fellow OrKestra colleagues, Mik and Hugh McDowell. The latter quickly left again, with a major figure in Part II threatening to quit because of certain backstage antics the cellist was accused of clashing with this other person's beliefs, though it's not really my place to discuss such matters here. What I will say is that Kelly would likely have become a full member of Part II sooner, only he briefly walked due to the continued presence of Dave Arden behind the scenes, who had previously been on the receiving end of his 1983 lawsuit, not to mention a high profile stay in prison for assaulting one of Jet's lead accountants. Kelly's frustration was totally understandable if you consider his personal situation in late 1982... He'd just learned that he was to become a father for the second time, yet still owed the studio for his first solo album, produced using advances secured because of his status as a major player in ELO. Despite poor sales, his label pushed for a follow-up, which evolved into the idea he could instead salvage the previous effort by recording new tracks and remixing the rest. Jeff didn't actually say that he planned on temporarily disbanding ELO, but rather told Richard, Bev and Kelly during the Time Tour that his intention was for the next group project to be a double LP, fulfilling his remaining contractual obligations, whether as only studio material or a combination of new tracks and highlights of a live show. From what I can tell, tapes from the European leg in early '82 were reviewed, yet ultimately dropped as suitable for release due to some kind of unforeseen technical issue. However, based on the circulating bootlegs, I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff simply didn't feel the performances were up to his standard. Whatever the case, Jeff's bombshell had massive repercussions for the rest of ELO's core line-up, with Bev accepting an invitation to join Black Sabbath after their original drummer, Bill Ward, elected not to tour in support of the band's Born Again album from 1983 as a result of his ongoing drink problem. Indeed, Bev thought of this as a permanent role until he learned there were plans to perform at Sun City, a decision that had previously seen fellow Musicland regulars Queen fined a large amount by the Musicians' Union for their appearances there in 1984, regarded as supportive of apartheid despite their generous donations to local charities and repeated pleas they never played to segregated audiences, although it was later acknowledged the majority of those present weren't all that ethnically diverse. I really shouldn't be giving so much away, but it's difficult not to when such great points are brought up. If anything, such "freebies" will hopefully push me to work harder in my final writing! P.S. I've had that high quality source of Beatles Forever in my possession for quite a while, though I made sure to remove the two watermarks its original provider included to ensure this could be easily identified should the file leak beyond its intended purpose of helping to verify the authenticity of the unmatched Secret Messages acetates sold on eBay by Rob Ford ten years ago. I'm surprised nobody else has tried doing this, as my knowledge of EQ and noise reduction certainly isn't to a professional level.
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Post by ShardEnder on Dec 4, 2015 22:59:52 GMT
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Post by livinthing on Dec 5, 2015 6:34:04 GMT
Nice one. I have been unable to hear this completed version until now. Plus many more bits I haven't heard before. Excellent!!
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Post by ash2 on Dec 5, 2015 11:20:53 GMT
Reconstructed by shardender I have kept away from the new album debate (if you can't say something nice....) but When I hear this compared to his new stuff and this was unreleased??? it makes me weep. Imagine something like this opening the new album...but to me it's just meh
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iopia
Junior Member
Posts: 23
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Post by iopia on Dec 5, 2015 12:47:56 GMT
Reconstructed by shardender I have kept away from the new album debate (if you can't say something nice....) but When I hear this compared to his new stuff and this was unreleased??? it makes me weep. Imagine something like this opening the new album...but to me it's just meh Honestly I personally think AITU easily trumps SM/BoP, and personally I even think it's stronger than Time (although we'll see in a few months if I still think the same - I also still think the same of Zoom by the way). However, Hello My Old Friend is one of my favourite songs from 80s ELO, I understand that he probably thought it was too long for a single album but it's mad that it took him so long to release it elsewhere. That being said, it always felt unfinished to me, more so than some of the other tracks that were cut, but with a bit of polishing up this could easily have been my favourite 80s ELO track.
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Post by BSJ on Dec 5, 2015 20:06:33 GMT
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 5, 2015 22:02:49 GMT
I have kept away from the new album debate (if you can't say something nice....) but When I hear this compared to his new stuff and this was unreleased??? it makes me weep. I think "Everyone's born to die" and "The bouncer" are better than the best song on AITU. "Julie" and "Latitude" could be on par with "Dirty to the bone" -the best one from AITU in my opinion- in terms of quality, and in a slightly lower bar, "Surrender" on par with "Ain't it a drag".
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Post by ShardEnder on Dec 6, 2015 0:41:37 GMT
Reconstructed by shardender I was wondering how long it would take for someone to decipher that! Oh, yes I wonder, wonder, wonder, wondered. To be honest, I'd just been feeling generous and decided to clear out some of my virtual closet, the only problem was that I couldn't decide right until the last minute whether to share my reconstruction of the full Hello My Old Friend (which had already been requested by a few people to help with their own attempts) or upload a theoretical 1982 album I've compiled based on the early idea for Secret Messages, consisting of half new* studio material and a second disc of highlights from the European leg of the Time Tour. I think the other can go back into the " box of tapes under me bed" for a while longer. Sorry... Just a moment: *cough* ruot-emitole/moc.reppordelif.www//:ptth(Can my polite yet bad throat be excused? If not, then please edit away.) *In researching for my book, I've discovered the songs most probably written by mid '82 for such a set based on the personnel involved and what tracks date from the misleadingly-titled Garden Rehearsals tape, actually produced in a less obvious environment. Of course, Kelly enthusiastically described Beatles Forever as being the possible first single while sessions were still ongoing, not to mention Richard once gave a hint by naming two further compositions already recorded as demos at Jeff's house - Danger Ahead and Hello My Old Friend. Also, we know that Rock 'N' Roll Is King was originally entitled Motor Factory with lyrics about the Longbridge car plant, fitting in with the preliminary concept for something more autobiographical, like the Birmingham equivalent of Strawberry Fields Forever and Penny Lane, both almost the thematic centrepieces of a 1967 Beatles LP about their own childhoods in Liverpool until the fictional Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band idea replaced this.
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