Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 8:13:27 GMT
I sometimes think Jeff is the most screwed musician of all time, based on what was cut from SM. Can you fuckin believe that Buildings, Hello etc were relegated to out-take status? It's just mind boggling.
|
|
|
Post by jackpunch on Dec 6, 2015 13:51:50 GMT
I sometimes think Jeff is the most screwed musician of all time, based on what was cut from SM. Can you fuckin believe that Buildings, Hello etc were relegated to out-take status? It's just mind boggling. I wonder if he was pushed into certain choices by the record company. Perhaps Hello was deemed too long at 8m+ to warrant a place on the final cut. I'm not sure Buildings is any better than whats already on SM. Would have been some double album mind. One day hopefully.....
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 6, 2015 15:39:41 GMT
I'm not usually one to be so openly critical, but I find it annoying that Buildings Have Eyes and Hello My Old Friend weren't included on the final version of Secret Messages, yet the seemingly never ending yawn that is Letter From Spain did make the cut! I'm guessing the length (and inability to really create a decent edit) of Hello My Old Friend led to this being dropped, while there are already enough upbeat tracks without having Buildings Have Eyes as well. Also, despite the fact it was clearly intended as ELO's grand closing statement, Jeff would have known that he still needed to deliver one final album - in this context, Hello My Old Friend sticks out as something of an anomaly in the late period catalogue, being closer to what he was producing in the early '70s in terms of its progressive ambition if not musical depth. Saying that, it's definitely one of the more dense tracks, and I can never understand why some people consider it underdeveloped. Richard once said that he felt the original demo recorded at Jeff's house was even more elaborate, so I'd give anything to hear this as part of a further expanded reissue with even more bonus content...
|
|
|
Post by Helmut83 on Dec 6, 2015 18:42:09 GMT
I sometimes think Jeff is the most screwed musician of all time, based on what was cut from SM. Can you fuckin believe that Buildings, Hello etc were relegated to out-take status? It's just mind boggling. To me, what's more mind boggling is that -I agree with ShardEnder here- there are several tracks that were included which are very inferior to those you mentioned in terms of quality. I mean, it's not that there was no room for them; it's that Jeff -supposing it was him- decided to prioritize other worse songs instead.
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 6, 2015 20:17:41 GMT
We know that it was CBS that blocked the release of Secret Messages in its original 2LP configuration, but what if they were also responsible for the final track selection? This would explain why all of the intended first side made the transition unchanged, while the more ambitious fourth was dropped entirely - maybe they decided against including Hello My Old Friend so they could instead make room for two songs, repeating the formula of Discovery and Time by ending the album with a commercial, simple rocker? Consider that the second half of the single disc Secret Messages doesn't have any crossfades, yet the opening four songs remain identical to how they were banded on the test acetates. There's a good chance that it was Jeff who personally reworked the album, only I recall a quote from Bev about how the group lost interest in the whole project once CBS stepped in, Jeff's creative vision for one last grand statement reduced to a stopgap until he could deliver what ultimately became their swansong, Balance Of Power. Rather than Jeff deciding to slip the planned "welcome to the show" ending onto Rock 'N' Roll Is King, did CBS simply recycle a mix that already existed? If we look at the contents of the unmatched acetates, this track was originally going to close the last side of Secret Messages, and if the title track already had its opening in place, could this have been an early idea that Jeff tried before deciding to end the album with Hello My Old Friend? I realise it's only speculative, but I'd be willing to wager it was CBS behind the final song choices. I'd like to believe there was no way Jeff would consciously leave off the very piece referenced more than any other in its parent album's eventual cover art, and yet it wasn't there on the 2001 remaster, either! Maybe he was to blame for the bad choices, his judgement clouded by what CBS had forced him to do?
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 13, 2015 21:05:16 GMT
Just another little update for you all:
Progress is continuing at a fantastic pace, and I'm already starting to write some final text. So far I've managed to accumulate over 65,000 words in rough notes alone, with about a month left before I can move out of the research phase (if all goes to plan, that is)!
Unfortunately, despite my efforts to reach both, it seems like I've lost contact with Dave Morgan and Bill Bottrell, though I've got more than enough to fill in most of the blanks I'd like to cover, plus there are a few other sources helping me out.
For example, I've managed to produce the list of equipment ELO used that belonged to the studios they worked in, with most of the gear at Musicland and Wisseloord now documented quite extensively - you can also expect to learn about many of Jeff's trademark secrets.
Speaking of secrets, I'm going to see if Rob Caiger will disclose the contents of The Garden Rehearsals, as I've already been able to assemble a fairly accurate tracklist based on the individual recollections of Dave Morgan and Richard Tandy. Fingers crossed...
Finally for now, it's come to my attention that we're getting a long overdue upgrade of the ELO catalogue next year to coincide with Jeff's UK tour, so if I can put the hours in, the end results of my labour could appear around this time as well.
My day job thankfully winds down over the holidays, though I'm predicting that my personal life will pick up, meaning that I might not be able to get as much done as I'd like to for a while. Still, it's not all bad, as I could do with a short break.
P.S. Did I mention the scope of my book will now include the Discovery sessions? This is when Kelly Groucutt's role within the group was first reduced, so it's necessary to feature the period for historical context, as his 1983 lawsuit is obviously going to play a major part.
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 13, 2015 21:38:08 GMT
Over the next few weeks, I'll be asking for help (both here at at the Steve Hoffman Music Forums, where I'm also a regular) with a few details that neither my research or sources have so far been unable to shed any light on, the first concerning this picture: Does anyone know what keyboard Mik Kaminski was playing at Heart Beat '86 as a string synthesiser on Don't Bring Me Down? Also, can someone help me to identify the sequencer Louis Clark used on ELO's tour with Rod Stewart? In his book, Dave Morgan describes this as being something the band only took delivery of during later rehearsals, impressing Jeff so much that they were able to program the introduction to Roll Over Beethoven on this rather than using tapes. You can hear this was the case on the audience recording from Stuttgart, but I'm no closer to being able to find out the specific model. Thank you in advance to whoever can help...
|
|
|
Post by Platypus on Dec 14, 2015 1:28:50 GMT
Are you asking about the history of the specific instrument, or just the type, as it looks to be a Roland SH-101.
|
|
|
Post by helli on Dec 14, 2015 1:28:59 GMT
Roland SH 101 ?
|
|
|
Post by helli on Dec 14, 2015 1:29:20 GMT
oops too late ;-)
|
|
|
Post by Platypus on Dec 14, 2015 1:39:49 GMT
Cross-posted! What are the odds of that?
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 14, 2015 13:40:10 GMT
Thanks for the help, everyone - I'm definitely going with the Roland SH-101 in my book due to the sheer number of people giving the same answer. At this rate I'll be able to stop worrying about the possible need to issue a second edition later on down the line to correct any mistakes! The identity of Lou's sequencer remains a mystery, though I suppose that I could always try asking him directly on Facebook... From what I can tell, he was playing an E-mu Emulator II at Heart Beat '86, while Richard had a rig that included another Emulator II, an Oberheim OB-Xa and a Korg Poly-61, but I can't quite tell what's under this last one, either. Any ideas?
Another thing I can be absolutely sure of is that the synthesiser Dave Morgan was occasionally seen playing during this concert was his own Roland VP-330 Vocoder Plus, which he first brought in after joining ELO for the Time Tour. This same keyboard then featured on Buildings Have Eyes and the original unreleased version of Tears In Your Life, both recorded during the sessions in Wisseloord Studios (along with the earlier Garden Rehearsals sessions) before going on to appear prominently throughout Earthrise, accompanied by "Dennis," which was actually an Oberheim DMX and not a Fairlight CMI II or Synclavier II as once wrongly assumed.
|
|
arnoldlayne
Junior Member
wohS ehT oT emocleW
Posts: 49
|
Post by arnoldlayne on Jan 6, 2016 18:53:30 GMT
Just catching up with this forum after being away for most of December. What is this video... It won't load for me - Any chance of a mirror or repost?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 9:03:41 GMT
I DEEPLY regret clicking on that link, he said, after a computer reboot.
|
|
|
Post by ShardEnder on Jan 10, 2016 21:42:13 GMT
Having recharged my batteries over the holiday period, I'm back to work on the book, and my latest "discovery" was made purely by accident while browsing on eBay: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIG-11X17-FRAMED-ELECTRIC-LIGHT-ORCHESTRA-ELO-TIME-LP-ALBUM-CD-PROMO-AD-/121860125503?hash=item1c5f6df33f:g:ILgAAOSwZG9Wj~tLI knew that Jet had print advertisements made up for ELO's later albums, but I'd never seen the one promoting Time until just recently. Just as Hello My Old Friend inspired the sleeve of the eventual single disc version of Secret Messages without even being on that, I was certain a similarly unused track influenced the earlier "handshake" design. Based on the fact we have accounts from people involved with the Balance Of Power sessions confirming there were no outtakes beyond those released as b-sides, it's likely such a track was In For The Kill, which may very well have dated from the Secret Messages period. As I've said before, Endless Lies was recorded in Wisseloord then eventually remixed for Balance Of Power to remove any of Dave Morgan's vocal contributions, meaning he didn't have to be credited. Following the departure of Kelly Groucutt and his lawsuit, which involved claims of other members contributing to ELO material yet never being financially rewarded for this, I can see why Jeff may have wanted to protect himself from further allegations of holding back royalties, even if he never fell out with Morgan. Anyway, to cut a potentially long story short, In For The Kill received a lyrical overhaul, becoming the more ambiguous Caught In A Trap. Going back to that Time ad, it's got an early design for the album cover in the bottom left corner, and the larger piece is very reminiscent of the original Secret Messages sleeve, right down to another appearance of that watch bearing the ELO logo, again on the wrist of a suited businessman. I'd once been told the reason CBS had the Secret Messages art changed is because of its similarity to an earlier piece, assuming this was a reference to Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Now, I'm more convinced the problem was that Jet had already used this poster for their Time era marketing campaign, not to mention the promotional watch making its return. Instead of potentially confusing fans, could it be that Secret Messages was ordered to have a new sleeve produced? Let's not forget that at one point, the intention was for it to have been a 2LP set, with one half studio material and the other highlights of the 1982 European tour. In that context, a sleeve partly referencing Time would have made sense, though not once this became a standalone product. I'm curious to see what you all think of such a subject before I consider whether or not to mention it in my book, and if anyone can find me promotional posters for Secret Messages outside of those already circulating online then I'd be eternally grateful.
|
|