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Post by Southernman on Nov 22, 2014 17:18:29 GMT
There is a bit of discussion in the BOP thread about this, but I thought it might be worth a thread of its own. Especially with the new album coming out which will no doubt add fuel to the debate. Obviously, there are many ways that you can think about this question, and personal opinion will always be the final judge. However (for what it’s worth) here's my analysis: 1. What does it say on the Zoom label? Easy one, it's Electric Light Orchestra.
2. Who owned the rights to the ELO name when Zoom came out? Again, straightforward enough. It's believed that Jeff bought out Bev's 50% share of ELO prior to Zoom (it was this 50% share that made any legal attempt by Jeff to stop Bev’s Part II activities unlikely to succeed). Prior to Roy's departure there was of course an equal 33% share for each of Roy, Bev and Jeff.
3. Does the lack of former ELO members’ involvement mean that it was a solo record? A bit trickier this one, but, if that's your view, who would have been required to make it an ELO record? I’m assuming that most people think that Richard’s involvement in Zoom was something of a technicality.
Bev? He was certainly a founder member, but then so was Roy and no-one seems to think that everything from ELO 2 onwards was not genuine Electric Light Orchestra, even though it was a different band and went off in a very different direction. Let’s say (for the sake of argument) that Bev had not rejoined the band for BOP - would we be debating whether that album was effectively a Jeff solo record? Probably not, because of Richard’s involvement. So what if Richard had retired before BOP and it had just been Jeff and Bev - would that have been said to be Jeff solo? Again, probably not.
So maybe it needs to be at least one of Bev and Richard to constitute ELO - but why? I think both of them contributed much to the ELO sound, but it was at Jeff’s creative direction, and it was designed to fulfil Jeff’s songwriting and production vision. All in all, the lack of former members is probably the strongest of the ‘is Zoom really Jeff solo?’ arguments, but it’s not exactly watertight IMO.
4. Does the appearance of Jeff’s mates as guests on Zoom make it a solo record? It is true that no previous ELO record featured guest stars (although there might have been a bit of Marc Bolan on OTTD for all we know) but does that really make a difference? Many groups have guest stars without these sorts of arguments arising. Taking ‘Into The Great Wide Open’ as an example, Jeff co-wrote, co-produced and performed on the album, and even Richard showed up on one track. Jeff’s input was fundamental to the album (and was probably the final straw for drummer Stan Lynch) but it was still very much a Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers record.
5. Does it sound more like a Jeff solo record than ELO? By what benchmark do we judge this? One of the things that I love about ELO’s career is that from beginning to end there was a step-change in the sound Jeff created from one album to the next. Others may disagree, but for me every album has a distinctive feel to it. For example, to this day I have trouble accepting that ‘The Bouncer’ was recorded during the Time sessions, as it sounds nothing like that album. I’m sure that’s because Jeff did not spend time working it into the album’s context.
When Jeff said (I think) that Zoom was intended to create what ELO would sound like 15 years on, that seems entirely consistent which what he ended up with. How similar was BOP to the first album 15 years previously? Why should Zoom sound like BOP, OOTB or anything else? Jeff moved the sound on to a new place, and he absorbed the influences of those he worked with along the way and those he respected. The fact that the intervening years since 1986 had seen him producing solo work which bore similarities with Zoom was inevitable and doesn’t make it a solo album IMO.
My conclusion: I would have loved to have seen the old band back together for Zoom. I would have loved to have seen Jeff do something adventurous with strings once more. Hell, I even hoped he would do something with Roy for old times’ sake! Imagine the media coverage that would have generated . But he didn’t. Jeff did what he had done on every previous ELO album - he went his own way and avoided treading in his own footsteps. Everyone will have their own view, but it says ELO on the label, and that’s just fine with me
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Post by unomusette on Nov 22, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
If Jeff hadn't brought out Armchair Theatre as an acknowledged solo album I'd accept Zoom as ELO. As you say, all the previous ELO albums progressed in one way or another and various personnel came and went, but if it had Jeff in charge and it carried the ELO label that was fine by me.
However, once he made the choice to put out material under his own name he'd made the break, in my mind anyway, and to come back after that with only one other founder member and call it ELO smacked of trying to use the name to sell more units. Not to mention he brought in that Vela woman, noooo!
So I will always consider Zoom to be a solo album. But the recent remasters of the old songs as a package is still ELO for me because they were originally recorded as such.
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Post by Southernman on Nov 22, 2014 21:36:11 GMT
However, once he made the choice to put out material under his own name he'd made the break, in my mind anyway, and to come back after that with only one other founder member and call it ELO smacked of trying to use the name to sell more units. Hmm. I think I see your point of view, but it seems a bit unreasonable to say that once he had put out a solo album, there was no return to ELO unless he got the old band back together. I suppose it depends where you sit on the Jeff is ELO/ELO is Jeff debate.
Having said that, I remember feeling annoyed with Jeff in the 90s, not because he put out solo material, but because he seemed so keen to bury ELO in the past and distance himself from it. In one interview he suggested he got tired of ELO post-OOTB and had no inspiration for the later albums. Whether that was true or not, it felt like I was being told I had wasted 8 years of my life obsessing over my favourite band's output. In retrospect, I expect this was simply part of him getting enough perspective on ELO to consider coming back to it.
As an aside - I sometimes wonder what would have happened had Bev not set off on the Part II path. Maybe he would have been back in 2001, still owning 50% of the name.
Not to mention he brought in that Vela woman, noooo!
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Post by janne on Nov 23, 2014 7:33:41 GMT
Interesting topic and lots of good points in your post, Southernman.
Zoom is of course technically an ELO album, because it says so on the label, so we could leave it at that.
And we could argue that a band with only one permanent member is nothing new - we have The Waterboys where Mike Scott is the constant, we have The Smashing Pumpkins which is still The Smashing Pumpkins as long as Billy Corgan is there. We have Hole where Courtney Love is at the mike and everything is okay.
And the fact that Richard Tandy is on one track of Zoom? Well, he is from the so-called classic lineup but he is not an "original member" as Wikipedia states. That credit can only go out to Jeff, Roy and Bev.
I think we have to analyze the more difficult questions: Does Zoom FEEL like an ELO album? Does Zoom have the QUALITY required to be an ELO album?
Those two aspects are related and, of course, highly subjective. Who's to decide what the album feels like? I, for one, think Zoom is totally different than the albums 1974-1981. On the other hand, ELO has always had different phases/eras. The first two albums sound different than the rest of the catalogue. On The Third Day is something in between the beginning and the classic era.
And the quality? Well, here we reach the really difficult bit. I honestly don't think any of the songs on Zoom come up to the level of, say, A New World Record or Out of The Blue. But hey, who's to say that ELO can't make a lacklustre album?
PS: Question: Do we really know that the ownership of the ELO name/brand was split three ways between Jeff, Roy and Bev in the beginning? And after that, 50-50 between Jeff and Bev? I would be really interested to learn more about this. Any details would be welcome. DS
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Post by Southernman on Nov 23, 2014 10:13:47 GMT
Definitely worth adding those questions, Janne. Does Zoom FEEL like an ELO album?As you say, very subjective, and depends what you think is the common thread in all of ELO's previous albums. If it's strong melodies, lush harmonies and intricate production, I'd say all those were present on Zoom. But then, they are also present on just about everything Jeff does, solo or otherwise, so maybe that doesn't help much . If it's the use of strings... well there might be something in that. Personally I'd have preferred more prominent strings on Zoom, and that might also have deflected some of the arguments for it sounding like a solo record. But, arguably, the strings used on Zoom are there for a reason, compared to the increasingly 'spray-on strings' approach of the final few ELO albums. Does Zoom have the QUALITY required to be an ELO album? Well, nothing is more subjective than this Personally, I think the songwriting on Zoom was very strong, and much more personal to Jeff than much of his output in the group's heyday. I accept that listening to Zoom in the same way as you might listen to the old ELO albums is a bit of a hurdle for some (and it was for me for a while) but I'm cool with it now. On the ownership of the ELO name, it's really from what I've read and understood from interviews and articles over the past 25 years or so. I can't think of specific references, but I'll post if I can find them. For what it's worth, Wikipedia is consistent with what I described, but that doesn't cite references either.
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Post by PowWow on Nov 23, 2014 10:30:28 GMT
Next you'll tell me A Momentary Lapse of Reason is a Pink Floyd album...
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Post by janne on Nov 23, 2014 13:19:45 GMT
Next you'll tell me A Momentary Lapse of Reason is a Pink Floyd album... Oh now, let's not go crazy
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Post by PowWow on Nov 23, 2014 13:22:10 GMT
Next you'll tell me A Momentary Lapse of Reason is a Pink Floyd album... Oh now, let's not go crazy Well both albums have similar backgrounds...
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Post by PowWow on Nov 23, 2014 22:55:32 GMT
Maybe Lynne knew that the ELO name alone is an instant cashgrab...
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Post by Helmut83 on Nov 24, 2014 23:49:05 GMT
Maybe Lynne knew that the ELO name alone is an instant cashgrab...
It may have been like that in the late '70s, but as for now, it doesn't look like that to me. Remember, for example, that the Zoom tour (promoted under the ELO name) had to be cancelled due to lack of selling tickets. It would be interesting to know, for example, how many ELO albums were sold during the last decade. I'd bet the number is quite low.
All that is left for ELO / Jeff Lynne is a hard core of fans (us) which knows enough about the band so as to know that (discussions aside) ELO is, basically, Jeff Lynne, and those hardcore fans wouldn't change their decision of buying an album or attending a show based on wether the name of the artist is Jeff Lynne or ELO.
PS: sorry for the typos in my last messages, I'm writing from my father's notebook and the Spanish autocorrect is killing me.
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Post by Southernman on Nov 25, 2014 18:01:42 GMT
Maybe Lynne knew that the ELO name alone is an instant cashgrab... Well that worked out then...
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Post by janne on Nov 26, 2014 8:54:01 GMT
Maybe Lynne knew that the ELO name alone is an instant cashgrab... It would be interesting to know, for example, how many ELO albums were sold during the last decade. I'd bet the number is quite low.
I think the ELO albums selling these days are the numerous compilations. People want Mr. Blue Sky and then they grab one of the compilations. I don't think the random CD buyer goes out and grabs Out of The Blue. Anyone have official sales figures for ELO albums for the last few years?
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Post by Helmut83 on Nov 26, 2014 18:22:53 GMT
It would be interesting to know, for example, how many ELO albums were sold during the last decade. I'd bet the number is quite low.
I think the ELO albums selling these days are the numerous compilations. People want Mr. Blue Sky and then they grab one of the compilations. I don't think the random CD buyer goes out and grabs Out of The Blue. That was my point, I don't see it as an instant cashgrab at all, not these days.
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Post by unomusette on Nov 26, 2014 21:40:00 GMT
You're right, it's Jeff's name that is shouted out by the likes of Chris Evans
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tl77
Full Member
Posts: 62
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Post by tl77 on Dec 3, 2014 21:18:22 GMT
I have mixed feelings about this. I like the album a lot. I guess the artwork and some very ELO'ish elements in the music - plus the fact that it's Jeff - make me accept it as an ELO album. Little touches like the Ordinary Dream intro, a variation of which reappears later, are very ELOish. But then there are some songs that aren't very ELOish to me, like Stranger On A Quiet Street. But not every song from the first album to Balance Of Power was very "ELOish" either! (whatever "ELOish" means). Richard was not only an essential part of the keyboard department in ELO, but he clearly had a nice touch on the guitar as well (the Strange Magic intro, the Shangri-la solo etc.). So I really would have liked to hear him on Zoom, although I'm sure I couldn't tell if it's Richard of Jeff playing a piano or guitar part! But there's something about knowing that somebody you'd like to be there is actually there.
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