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Post by dillwyn on Dec 7, 2020 9:49:01 GMT
one of the themes of comment on JL's music is often his drum sound... these two video's look into the snare ... in my view the second video is more enjoyable than the first...
it can be a dry old subject if you aren't interested in this musical production generally
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Post by cleldo on Dec 9, 2020 16:08:47 GMT
I like Bev's snare sound
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Post by finberty on Dec 9, 2020 20:58:49 GMT
Bev's drum sound was always front and central to the ELO sound, back in the day. The current recorded sound suggests a towel across the drumhead, then being hit with timpani sticks rather than solid wood. Donavan Hepburn's live sound is good but the studio sound - not so much.
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Post by ShardEnder on Dec 10, 2020 8:03:11 GMT
Here's my understanding of how Jeff got his drum sound back at Musicland:
1. Bev played just the kit with close microphones, but not cymbals or any other percussion - these cut through the mix and were overdubbed later so their frequencies could be better controlled. Also, more distant* microphones were set up to pick up some of the room sound.
2. He'd then repeat these parts, only now from either the toilet (to make use of the natural reverb of the tiled walls) or in the corridor. Because of the precision necessary for this take to blend with the earlier one, there wasn't much room for intricate fills.
3. Both performances were then blended together, with the secret ingredient being a black face model UA 1176LN compressor crushing everything into a single, thick sound. At this stage, cymbals would be added on their own channel of the multitrack tape.
4. Another key trick to Jeff's overall signature drum sound is having the hi-hat or sometimes ride cymbal play sixteenth notes that would be combined with a 12-string Ovation acoustic guitar. Later on, he'd commonly switch out this element with an Oberheim DMX track.
Have fun experimenting with something I've always considered one of the best ELO production tricks!
*Jeff normally has microphones placed at 10' increments and would switch between these until he found the right combination with the closest recordings.
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Post by mrradio on Dec 11, 2020 10:12:40 GMT
Another quite important element is the way Mack mic'd the snare drum itself. From what I recall he would often use a Sennheiser MD421 dynamic mic or possibly a Neumann KM84 condenser mic and instead of mic'ing the top of the snare drum he would mic the shell (the side of the drum) with possibly a little of the mic looking over the top from the sound of it. That's how he would pick up a little more of the snare rattle/buzz.
As already mentioned, room mics played a huge part in the drum sounds, overdubbing snares on their own and later the DMX drum machine (Secret Messages - which has a notably thinner drum sound on the album)
An interesting comparison is the drum sounds on ANWR - quite roomy, a little thin but probably suited to the album - and Eagles' Hotel California/Fleetwood Mac Rumours. All albums recorded in 1976 but the latter two American recorded albums had a super dry tight sound with definition, little room sound at all, and lots of close kick, snare and tom sounds.
I've always liked Bev's drum playing and later the drum machines and the sounds Jeff and Mack got. Bev certainly isn't the best drummer in the world but I think his rather heavy handed, somewhat sloppy style suits the ELO records perfectly. The drum sounds were particularly good on Discovery and Xanadu. Discovery sees them sounding a little drier. Presumably to fit in with the disco era where fairly dry sounding drum machines were being used - or dry drum recordings anyway. They still sounded fairly full on Time but there's a lot more of the drum machine making up the sound. I was always really disappointed by the drum sounds and lack of dynamics on Secret Messages even though I really like the album and a lot of the other ear candy (keyboards, effects etc)
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Post by janne on Dec 14, 2020 6:47:50 GMT
Why would you want to recreate one of the most annoying things with Jeff's music? Get a real drummer already and put some oomph in the drums!
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Post by Helmut83 on Dec 14, 2020 19:11:33 GMT
I thought it was done by shooting a compressed-air 5mm rifle.
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Post by StrangeMagic on Dec 15, 2020 4:27:54 GMT
You all are so mean. Obviously some producers appreciate Jeff's snare sound.
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Post by janne on Dec 22, 2020 15:13:03 GMT
Another quite important element is the way Mack mic'd the snare drum itself. From what I recall he would often use a Sennheiser MD421 dynamic mic or possibly a Neumann KM84 condenser mic and instead of mic'ing the top of the snare drum he would mic the shell (the side of the drum) with possibly a little of the mic looking over the top from the sound of it. That's how he would pick up a little more of the snare rattle/buzz. As already mentioned, room mics played a huge part in the drum sounds, overdubbing snares on their own and later the DMX drum machine (Secret Messages - which has a notably thinner drum sound on the album) An interesting comparison is the drum sounds on ANWR - quite roomy, a little thin but probably suited to the album - and Eagles' Hotel California/Fleetwood Mac Rumours. All albums recorded in 1976 but the latter two American recorded albums had a super dry tight sound with definition, little room sound at all, and lots of close kick, snare and tom sounds. I've always liked Bev's drum playing and later the drum machines and the sounds Jeff and Mack got. Bev certainly isn't the best drummer in the world but I think his rather heavy handed, somewhat sloppy style suits the ELO records perfectly. The drum sounds were particularly good on Discovery and Xanadu. Discovery sees them sounding a little drier. Presumably to fit in with the disco era where fairly dry sounding drum machines were being used - or dry drum recordings anyway. They still sounded fairly full on Time but there's a lot more of the drum machine making up the sound. I was always really disappointed by the drum sounds and lack of dynamics on Secret Messages even though I really like the album and a lot of the other ear candy (keyboards, effects etc) I love the drum sound of A New World Record. "Roomy", as you say.
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Post by elosimms on Dec 22, 2020 22:38:20 GMT
I think you could approximate the drum sound circa 2019 by turning a good sturdy cardboard box upside down...or is it downside up... or a large Tupperware container for sandwiches...upside down.
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Post by BSJ on Dec 23, 2020 18:36:11 GMT
I think you could approximate the drum sound circa 2019 by turning a good sturdy cardboard box upside down... Close to what I hear in the opening of "Every little Thing".
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Post by queenofthehours on Jan 11, 2021 16:44:07 GMT
When we think of Jeff it's usually as the perfectionist who annoys his band-mates with being slow and pernickety. However, I never really thought hard enough about it to realise that he wasn't being a perfectionist (at least not wholly), he was being experimental and experiments take a long time which can look to others like perfectionism and slowness. Of course I knew he was a terrific experimentalist but there's a big difference between taking the time to try new things and taking the time to go over the same thing time and time again.
It's annoying when musicians like Jeff are portrayed in a negative way because they work hard in the studio but are only portrayed as experimental geniuses when it suits the critics.
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Post by Timeblue on Jan 11, 2021 18:14:52 GMT
Word of the day- pernickety.....
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Post by ShardEnder on Jan 11, 2021 23:53:16 GMT
Jeff's experimentation may have seemed boring and disengaging to those not directly involved in the creative process, but I would love to know more about the lengths he's gone to in chasing a single sound. For example, that OB-Xa brass patch on Hello My Old Friend took Jeff and Richard three days (!!) to perfect, which left Bev sat around in Holland waiting for something to do. Originally, that song was going to have an entirely programmed drum track, though it was decided they'd appease their actual drummer by switching off the DMX and letting Bev go absolutely wild for what almost became ELO's swansong. Much later, Jeff revisited three shorter instances of the band letting off some steam during that same session - one of these being a short exchange captured in the studio and kept for posterity under the title of Got No Echo, which also features a little of the aforementioned custom synth voice, another being an unidentified bodily function that was sampled onto Dave's modified DMX, and the last being a fun outtake from Lou's string and choral overdub takes, the end result becoming Who's That?
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Post by queenofthehours on Jan 19, 2021 19:26:07 GMT
Some people just use the first sound they come up with (either because they are lazy or because they don't know any better). Some people experiment to find something new and different. And others, the Jeffs of this world, experiment to find a noise that matches the one they hear in their head. I think that genius comes from this last set of people.
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