ELECTRIC LIGHT ORCHESTRA perf. by Phil Bates & Band
Dec 21, 2015 18:58:19 GMT
Horacewimp, erchie, and 5 more like this
Post by ShardEnder on Dec 21, 2015 18:58:19 GMT
I've seen quite a few great comments from both sides of the fence, but there are a few details I'd like to cover...
First of all, Phil Bates has just as much of a history with ELO as some of the other former members. Apart from being the support act on the 1978 tour, Trickster was actually the second biggest group on Jet Records, surpassing even Wizzard (but only due to a certain festive single being released while Roy Wood's band was still under contract to Harvest). Yes, their success didn't come close to matching that of ELO, though it's surely a sign of how well they were doing that Trickster remained on the label long after every other act had either left or been dropped, dismissed itself in 1981 when the Ardens decided to put all their proverbial eggs in one basket, identifying Jeff Lynne as the golden goose they so desperately needed at a time Jet's finances were spiralling out of control. For what it's worth, I thought Phil was indeed a great shot in the arm for Part II, with the One Night version of One More Tomorrow a song I consider one of their finest, easily comparable to the best Jeff Lynne ever offered. In either of configuration, Part II and The Orchestra never did much for me, though it would be wrong to say they don't have any highlights - Eric Troyer in particular is a fantastic songwriter, and P. Hux is no slouch, for that matter.
In recent years, I've lost count of how many times Phil's been legally challenged, accused of falsely advertising his various musical projects as ELO. I noticed a while back that Jeff's lawyers usually go after him for misleading promotion in continental Europe, with Germany a country that seems to be a frequent target of his supposed deception. Now, there's little point even denying that to untrained eyes, Phil could almost be Jeff's long-lost doppelgänger, though in terms of talent he's clearly not a patch on Mr. Blue Sky himself. I can't blame Jeff for wantng to put his name up there, as this is clearly what a few members of Part II have been doing for some time. Does anyone else remember the picture of The Orchestra that was left on Jeff's chair at the Grammy awards last year? Despite his success, clearly not everyone could pick Jeff out of a crowd, and I suspect it's this relative anonymity that Part II, The Orchestra and Phil Bates in particular like to trade on to their own financial gain. Saying that, Phil's also spent a large amount of time performing as the leader of an act that includes Mik Kaminski, appearing as the Beatles, Blues and Blue Violin project, or BBBV for short. Does anyone honestly go to his shows under this moniker expecting Paul McCartney to be there? No? Why should it be any different for his "ELO" situation, then? If Jeff is so unknown to the masses, why does it matter who's on the stage if the music all that supposedly counts?
Part II definitely kept the flame going in the '90s, when Jeff was looking to elevate his status as more of a producer than a musician. However, there seems to have been some confusion regarding the Afterglow boxed set. From what I've been able to find out, this retrospective was meant to have been released in 1988 to coincide with the CD debut of several ELO titles, only this plan was heavily delayed for two notable reasons. To start with, it was around this period that Bev initially approached Jeff about reuniting ELO, though it quickly became clear Lynne's mind was on distancing himself from the group, having already fulfilled his contractual obligations. Once it was obvious there would be no chance of Bevan getting any income from a new album and subsequent tour, he considered other options. Just a few months before, his once promising association as the new drummer with Black Sabbath came to an end when he walked out when they announced intentions to play in Sun City, which he felt was too controversial for him to personally commit to. If ELO was officially done, perhaps he could use his clout as an equal shareholder to reform the group under a new line-up, just as Jeff did when he entered the picture late into The Move's existence?
To start with, Bev proposed going out on the road under a new name, reportedly to have been Afterglow. Following a discussion with financial backers, it was obvious his idea of a big budget concert more like ELO's 1978 Big Night shows rather than the sparse Time Tour stage setup couldn't be justified without an album to promote, and there was no guarantee a new studio effort by once-familiar musicians beginning from scratch would perform similarly on a commercial level, as proved by Kelly Groucutt's multiple pseudonyms all failing to make any kind of major impression on the charts. In the end, Jeff agreed that Bev could perform as ELO Part II, but only if certain conditions were met. Of these, the most significant concerned studio material. After his previous very public lawsuit that included claims he had not received a credit for helping create several of ELO's biggest hits, Kelly was prohibited from potentially profiting from any further songwriting with the group, effectively banned from recording with Part II. Also, being one of the more recogniseable figures of the classic era group, Jeff realised that Kelly might still be able to draw in fans, blocking him from performing with Part II on stage as well. In other words, Kelly Groucutt was frozen out of the picture by Jeff.
Exploiting the first of many such loopholes they'd take advantage of, Part II found a way to get Kelly into the band along with a few other old faces. ELO had notoriously dismissed their live string section in 1979, so Bev knew fans would welcome back Mik Kaminski and Hugh McDowell. Although frequently promoted as full members, these three were technically guests on Part II's 1991 tour, using the opportunity to advertise their own collective, OrKestra. In reality, they'd managed to bypass Jeff's initial agreement without actually breaking the rules set by him in a court-approved document. Word of this soon got back to Jeff, and while he was quick to prepare a cease and desist order, he ultimately didn't launch a response soon enough, as before long Kelly, Mik and Hugh were out of the picture, supposedly in protest at Part II's management still being under the influence of the Ardens, Kelly especially troubled by this due to his previous case against them. For those who aren't aware, his 1983 case was originally against David Arden in particular, since he was the one controlling Jet's purse strings. Roy Wood has also been extremely outspoken about how he was the only one being paid in Wizzard by the time he ended his own association with Jet, so it's painfully apparent that while Kelly was an undeniably great showman, the chance at making some money also influenced his decision to join Part II.
With the Ardens now out of the scene and Kelly's own manager taking a more active role, he returned to Part II in 1993, bringing Mik along from the newly-disbanded OrKestra, whose Roll Over Beethoven album had been the subject of legal scrutiny by Jeff, who felt the group was attempting to profit from their association with an ELO single that was ironically their only worthwhile hit not to have been written by either Lynne or Roy Wood. From what I've been told, the only reason Hugh McDowell didn't return as well is because a certain other member of Part II threatened to leave, finding the cellist's backstage antics ran counter to his own religious beliefs. I don't really like discussing such matters, but it's well known that Eric Troyer was a conscientious objector, so you can reasonably assume he was the one who issued an ultimatum. Considering how much he brought to Part II, I can completely understand why they'd have been reluctant to lose him over a mere string player, even one connected to ELO and Wizzard, further legitimising the new band's credibility with long term fans.
Along with negotiating with Bev to allow Part II to exist, the second factor that led to Afterglow being delayed until 1990 was Jeff being more concerned with his solo projects, which at the time included Armchair Theatre and a second (or should that be third?) Traveling Wilburys album. Even though he provided a short written piece for its booklet's liner notes and appeared to fully endorse the collection, I've been reliably informed that Jeff's involvement was phoned-in. Had he been more engaged, there's no way Jeff would have allowed some of the terrible mastering decisions that plagued the three discs making up Afterglow, which may explain why Sony went back to the drawing board soon after to produce the vastly superior Strange Magic compilation, losing any rarities to focus on just the hits presented in a way that did them much greater justice from a sonic perspective. Speaking of track selection, it's also believed that Jeff wasn't too happy with the inclusion of a heavily-edited Hello My Old Friend or the other Secret Messages leftovers, though he cared enough to ensure Beatles Forever did not make the cut. I've heard that he specifically objected to A Matter Of Fact being on there, since he was able to successfully block this from the later Balance Of Power remaster. Sony could quite easily have licensed something from Xanadu, but at the time Jeff was very much against being associated with that project. Furthermore, he supposedly wasn't happy with the "pretentious" Kuiama taking up a large amount of the first disc in favour of what he felt were better songs from the Eldorado album, which he's more proud of in hindsight.
Sorry, that was a much more detailed response than I was originally hoping to write!
First of all, Phil Bates has just as much of a history with ELO as some of the other former members. Apart from being the support act on the 1978 tour, Trickster was actually the second biggest group on Jet Records, surpassing even Wizzard (but only due to a certain festive single being released while Roy Wood's band was still under contract to Harvest). Yes, their success didn't come close to matching that of ELO, though it's surely a sign of how well they were doing that Trickster remained on the label long after every other act had either left or been dropped, dismissed itself in 1981 when the Ardens decided to put all their proverbial eggs in one basket, identifying Jeff Lynne as the golden goose they so desperately needed at a time Jet's finances were spiralling out of control. For what it's worth, I thought Phil was indeed a great shot in the arm for Part II, with the One Night version of One More Tomorrow a song I consider one of their finest, easily comparable to the best Jeff Lynne ever offered. In either of configuration, Part II and The Orchestra never did much for me, though it would be wrong to say they don't have any highlights - Eric Troyer in particular is a fantastic songwriter, and P. Hux is no slouch, for that matter.
In recent years, I've lost count of how many times Phil's been legally challenged, accused of falsely advertising his various musical projects as ELO. I noticed a while back that Jeff's lawyers usually go after him for misleading promotion in continental Europe, with Germany a country that seems to be a frequent target of his supposed deception. Now, there's little point even denying that to untrained eyes, Phil could almost be Jeff's long-lost doppelgänger, though in terms of talent he's clearly not a patch on Mr. Blue Sky himself. I can't blame Jeff for wantng to put his name up there, as this is clearly what a few members of Part II have been doing for some time. Does anyone else remember the picture of The Orchestra that was left on Jeff's chair at the Grammy awards last year? Despite his success, clearly not everyone could pick Jeff out of a crowd, and I suspect it's this relative anonymity that Part II, The Orchestra and Phil Bates in particular like to trade on to their own financial gain. Saying that, Phil's also spent a large amount of time performing as the leader of an act that includes Mik Kaminski, appearing as the Beatles, Blues and Blue Violin project, or BBBV for short. Does anyone honestly go to his shows under this moniker expecting Paul McCartney to be there? No? Why should it be any different for his "ELO" situation, then? If Jeff is so unknown to the masses, why does it matter who's on the stage if the music all that supposedly counts?
Part II definitely kept the flame going in the '90s, when Jeff was looking to elevate his status as more of a producer than a musician. However, there seems to have been some confusion regarding the Afterglow boxed set. From what I've been able to find out, this retrospective was meant to have been released in 1988 to coincide with the CD debut of several ELO titles, only this plan was heavily delayed for two notable reasons. To start with, it was around this period that Bev initially approached Jeff about reuniting ELO, though it quickly became clear Lynne's mind was on distancing himself from the group, having already fulfilled his contractual obligations. Once it was obvious there would be no chance of Bevan getting any income from a new album and subsequent tour, he considered other options. Just a few months before, his once promising association as the new drummer with Black Sabbath came to an end when he walked out when they announced intentions to play in Sun City, which he felt was too controversial for him to personally commit to. If ELO was officially done, perhaps he could use his clout as an equal shareholder to reform the group under a new line-up, just as Jeff did when he entered the picture late into The Move's existence?
To start with, Bev proposed going out on the road under a new name, reportedly to have been Afterglow. Following a discussion with financial backers, it was obvious his idea of a big budget concert more like ELO's 1978 Big Night shows rather than the sparse Time Tour stage setup couldn't be justified without an album to promote, and there was no guarantee a new studio effort by once-familiar musicians beginning from scratch would perform similarly on a commercial level, as proved by Kelly Groucutt's multiple pseudonyms all failing to make any kind of major impression on the charts. In the end, Jeff agreed that Bev could perform as ELO Part II, but only if certain conditions were met. Of these, the most significant concerned studio material. After his previous very public lawsuit that included claims he had not received a credit for helping create several of ELO's biggest hits, Kelly was prohibited from potentially profiting from any further songwriting with the group, effectively banned from recording with Part II. Also, being one of the more recogniseable figures of the classic era group, Jeff realised that Kelly might still be able to draw in fans, blocking him from performing with Part II on stage as well. In other words, Kelly Groucutt was frozen out of the picture by Jeff.
Exploiting the first of many such loopholes they'd take advantage of, Part II found a way to get Kelly into the band along with a few other old faces. ELO had notoriously dismissed their live string section in 1979, so Bev knew fans would welcome back Mik Kaminski and Hugh McDowell. Although frequently promoted as full members, these three were technically guests on Part II's 1991 tour, using the opportunity to advertise their own collective, OrKestra. In reality, they'd managed to bypass Jeff's initial agreement without actually breaking the rules set by him in a court-approved document. Word of this soon got back to Jeff, and while he was quick to prepare a cease and desist order, he ultimately didn't launch a response soon enough, as before long Kelly, Mik and Hugh were out of the picture, supposedly in protest at Part II's management still being under the influence of the Ardens, Kelly especially troubled by this due to his previous case against them. For those who aren't aware, his 1983 case was originally against David Arden in particular, since he was the one controlling Jet's purse strings. Roy Wood has also been extremely outspoken about how he was the only one being paid in Wizzard by the time he ended his own association with Jet, so it's painfully apparent that while Kelly was an undeniably great showman, the chance at making some money also influenced his decision to join Part II.
With the Ardens now out of the scene and Kelly's own manager taking a more active role, he returned to Part II in 1993, bringing Mik along from the newly-disbanded OrKestra, whose Roll Over Beethoven album had been the subject of legal scrutiny by Jeff, who felt the group was attempting to profit from their association with an ELO single that was ironically their only worthwhile hit not to have been written by either Lynne or Roy Wood. From what I've been told, the only reason Hugh McDowell didn't return as well is because a certain other member of Part II threatened to leave, finding the cellist's backstage antics ran counter to his own religious beliefs. I don't really like discussing such matters, but it's well known that Eric Troyer was a conscientious objector, so you can reasonably assume he was the one who issued an ultimatum. Considering how much he brought to Part II, I can completely understand why they'd have been reluctant to lose him over a mere string player, even one connected to ELO and Wizzard, further legitimising the new band's credibility with long term fans.
Along with negotiating with Bev to allow Part II to exist, the second factor that led to Afterglow being delayed until 1990 was Jeff being more concerned with his solo projects, which at the time included Armchair Theatre and a second (or should that be third?) Traveling Wilburys album. Even though he provided a short written piece for its booklet's liner notes and appeared to fully endorse the collection, I've been reliably informed that Jeff's involvement was phoned-in. Had he been more engaged, there's no way Jeff would have allowed some of the terrible mastering decisions that plagued the three discs making up Afterglow, which may explain why Sony went back to the drawing board soon after to produce the vastly superior Strange Magic compilation, losing any rarities to focus on just the hits presented in a way that did them much greater justice from a sonic perspective. Speaking of track selection, it's also believed that Jeff wasn't too happy with the inclusion of a heavily-edited Hello My Old Friend or the other Secret Messages leftovers, though he cared enough to ensure Beatles Forever did not make the cut. I've heard that he specifically objected to A Matter Of Fact being on there, since he was able to successfully block this from the later Balance Of Power remaster. Sony could quite easily have licensed something from Xanadu, but at the time Jeff was very much against being associated with that project. Furthermore, he supposedly wasn't happy with the "pretentious" Kuiama taking up a large amount of the first disc in favour of what he felt were better songs from the Eldorado album, which he's more proud of in hindsight.
Sorry, that was a much more detailed response than I was originally hoping to write!