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Post by jackpunch on Jun 30, 2022 22:10:47 GMT
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't agree. ELO was a pop group that didn't bring anything new to the table. A very good pop group, but still. And as far as their sound - they were generally six months behind ABBA... Jeff even went to ABBA's Polar Studios to try to capture some of the magic from there, on the Time album. Didn't bring anything new to the table? Are you a fan or are you just trolling? ABBA was bubble gum pop at it's finest. It was made for the 13 year old female. I'll be honest and say ABBA were miles ahead of songwriting and production when it comes to pop songs. Jeff is a genius, a great singer and incredible songwriter but he's not as influencial or as musically talented as many other songwriters
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Post by lawrev on Jun 30, 2022 23:31:39 GMT
I'm more interested in how ELO would have sounded if one of the Beatles had joined Jeff after Roy departed? what would the best songwriting combo have been? John & Jeff (Lennon did a good job of keeping Paul from going too sappy), George & Jeff (worked pretty damn well on Cloud Nine and Wilbury's), Paul & Jeff (intense rivalry to write the best melody), Ringo & Jeff (no, I can't imagine a 2nd drummer in ELO) or maybe Jeff just wasn't very good at sharing the songwriting role at that point in his career You raise an interesting alternative universe. I think Jeff was too headstrong in his vision after Roy left. So while Jeff had some success after Roy left, I think he was so confident in his vision that he couldn't have brought a Beatle into ELO. Quite frankly, I think that either George, John or Paul would have eclipsed him in ELO in the early 70s. And which Beatle would have put up with Don Arden? Anytime a member of ELO went to Arden for a raise, Arden basically berated them and treated them like **** (except Jeff and Bev, of course). Don Arden was not Brian Epstein.
I wonder what others think about this alternative scenario....
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Post by janne on Jul 1, 2022 6:59:40 GMT
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't agree. ELO was a pop group that didn't bring anything new to the table. A very good pop group, but still. And as far as their sound - they were generally six months behind ABBA... Jeff even went to ABBA's Polar Studios to try to capture some of the magic from there, on the Time album. Didn't bring anything new to the table? Are you a fan or are you just trolling? ABBA was bubble gum pop at it's finest. It was made for the 13 year old female. Do you have anything against 13 year old females? Those are generally best at judging what is the next big thing. My comparison between ABBA and ELO was regarding the sound. I say Jeff picked a lot of studio tricks from ABBA. I stand by my saying that ELO didn't bring anything new to the table. Strings in pop music wasn't invented by ELO. And yes, I am a fan, since the 70's. And yes, ELO was a very good pop group, but they were never groundbreaking, such as Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan or whomever.
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Post by orioles70 on Jul 1, 2022 12:31:34 GMT
the live aspect to ELO was groundbreaking - at least for rock groups no one had toured with a regular string section as part of the band special performances with an orchestra were sometimes given, but ELO was unique in the 7 man format
as to where Jeff learned his production tricks, he started in the front room with his tape machine and he's admitted to doing some daft things until he learned the craft I think he probably soaked up things from a host of different folks.
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Post by lawrev on Jul 1, 2022 13:04:25 GMT
Didn't bring anything new to the table? Are you a fan or are you just trolling? ABBA was bubble gum pop at it's finest. It was made for the 13 year old female. Do you have anything against 13 year old females? Those are generally best at judging what is the next big thing. My comparison between ABBA and ELO was regarding the sound. I say Jeff picked a lot of studio tricks from ABBA. I stand by my saying that ELO didn't bring anything new to the table. Strings in pop music wasn't invented by ELO. And yes, I am a fan, since the 70's. And yes, ELO was a very good pop group, but they were never groundbreaking, such as Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan or whomever. Starting with Discovery and continuing through Xanadu, it was very common in US music magazines to say that ELO sounded like ABBA and the Beatles. I'd say that ended with the Time album.
But also at that time (Discovery onwards) these same magazines said that Jeff was becoming more reclusive because Bev was doing most of the solo PR for the band. And, of course, with the letting go of the string section, there were no more press conferences on tour with the magnificent 7 at the PR table.
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Post by lawrev on Jul 1, 2022 13:07:35 GMT
the live aspect to ELO was groundbreaking - at least for rock groups no one had toured with a regular string section as part of the band special performances with an orchestra were sometimes given, but ELO was unique in the 7 man format as to where Jeff learned his production tricks, he started in the front room with his tape machine and he's admitted to doing some daft things until he learned the craft I think he probably soaked up things from a host of different folks. Indeed, ELO was groundbreaking in the 70s (until December 1979) by being the first rock band to have a string section (in the studio and most certainly on tour). That is how they expanded on the Walrus concept as Lennon commented. But once the string section disappeared, ELO lost that ground breaking aspect and became just another pop band - though Time holds up well today as something very cool and somewhat influential to a generation later (though I don't think Lynne did that on purpose).
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Post by tightrope on Jul 1, 2022 14:48:43 GMT
Didn't bring anything new to the table? Are you a fan or are you just trolling? ABBA was bubble gum pop at it's finest. It was made for the 13 year old female. Do you have anything against 13 year old females? Those are generally best at judging what is the next big thing. My comparison between ABBA and ELO was regarding the sound. I say Jeff picked a lot of studio tricks from ABBA. I stand by my saying that ELO didn't bring anything new to the table. Strings in pop music wasn't invented by ELO. And yes, I am a fan, since the 70's. And yes, ELO was a very good pop group, but they were never groundbreaking, such as Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan or whomever. Ok where to start? No I don't have anything against 13 yr old females. To suggest that is as silly as an ABBA song. ELO was always fresh and new and nothing like anyone else. They did things the Beatles didn't do, John Lennon said so himself. Strings may not have been invented By ELO but they were perfected in that application. Joni Mitchel doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jeff Lynne.
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Post by janne on Jul 1, 2022 17:10:12 GMT
Do you have anything against 13 year old females? Those are generally best at judging what is the next big thing. My comparison between ABBA and ELO was regarding the sound. I say Jeff picked a lot of studio tricks from ABBA. I stand by my saying that ELO didn't bring anything new to the table. Strings in pop music wasn't invented by ELO. And yes, I am a fan, since the 70's. And yes, ELO was a very good pop group, but they were never groundbreaking, such as Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan or whomever. Ok where to start? No I don't have anything against 13 yr old females. To suggest that is as silly as an ABBA song. ELO was always fresh and new and nothing like anyone else. They did things the Beatles didn't do, John Lennon said so himself. Strings may not have been invented By ELO but they were perfected in that application. Joni Mitchel doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jeff Lynne. Joni Mitchell - on the other hand - IS groundbreaking. That you don't like her doesn't change that fact.
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Post by tightrope on Jul 1, 2022 18:14:08 GMT
Ok where to start? No I don't have anything against 13 yr old females. To suggest that is as silly as an ABBA song. ELO was always fresh and new and nothing like anyone else. They did things the Beatles didn't do, John Lennon said so himself. Strings may not have been invented By ELO but they were perfected in that application. Joni Mitchel doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jeff Lynne. Joni Mitchell - on the other hand - IS groundbreaking. That you don't like her doesn't change that fact. I'm going to say one more thing before stepping away as this is going nowhere. You confuse "fact" with opinion. When speaking of something pertaining to entertainment, opinion is all we have when it comes to taste.
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Post by pelo on Jul 2, 2022 7:16:40 GMT
Didn't bring anything new to the table? Are you a fan or are you just trolling? ABBA was bubble gum pop at it's finest. It was made for the 13 year old female. Do you have anything against 13 year old females? Those are generally best at judging what is the next big thing. My comparison between ABBA and ELO was regarding the sound. I say Jeff picked a lot of studio tricks from ABBA. I stand by my saying that ELO didn't bring anything new to the table. Strings in pop music wasn't invented by ELO. And yes, I am a fan, since the 70's. And yes, ELO was a very good pop group, but they were never groundbreaking, such as Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell. Or Bob Dylan or whomever. Some remarks: 1. ELO's string experiments: There is a video on youtube in which classically trained British artrock musician John Cale (The Velvet Underground) states that ELO took everything a step further, and that he thought it was really exciting back then. 2. ELO = a little pop band? Because of Lynne's talent for nice melodic tunes, people always tend to overlook the progressive aspect to Jeff's music. I think it was the Classic Rock mag which labelled this " prog pop", and rightly so. Jeff never stopped experimenting with sounds, chord progressions, weird compression,production methods, sound effects, he just wasn't experimenting with strings that much any more in the later years. When in 1990, he released "AT", the respected music mag "Spex" considered the SYSTEMATIC room sound approach to be very groundbreaking. As a keyboard fan, I also have to mention ELO's innovative use of synthesizers. ELO used synthesizers in such a fascinating way that even synth pioneer Jean Michel Jarre was inspired by them - " Discovery" is one of his favourite albums, and he wanted to work with Jeff for his " Electronica"- project, featuring collaborations with electronically- minded musicians. Plus: As early as 1962 or 63 when he saw Del Shannon in concert, Jeff Lynne started thinking about sound and recording techniques. I do like ABBA, and Eagle is prog pop at its best - but frankly, ABBA were still a pretty mediocre bubble gum pop group in 1974 and 1975 when Jeff and his band already had recorded such brilliantly produced masterpieces as "Eldorado" or "Face The Music" Finally, saying that ELO sounds like ABBA is a drastic simplification and may only hold for songs like Xanadu, to some degree. But there are many more facets of how ELO could sound. Apparently you have never listened to some of their live performances. ELO could also be very loud Hard rock! Richard Tandy even said in an interview 1974 that, in contrast to the more melodic stuff on " Eldorado", they had opted for an edgier, heavier sound on stage because they were still supporting groups such as Deep purple.
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Post by janne on Jul 2, 2022 7:37:50 GMT
Joni Mitchell - on the other hand - IS groundbreaking. That you don't like her doesn't change that fact. I'm going to say one more thing before stepping away as this is going nowhere. You confuse "fact" with opinion. When speaking of something pertaining to entertainment, opinion is all we have when it comes to taste. I agree with that. You can look at Grammy Awards, Kennedy Center Honors etc. But it says only so much. I intend no ill will with my comparisons between artists, just a bit of playful discussion about music. I am a lifelong ELO fan, and they were one of the first bands I became obsessed with. I came to ELO via The Beatles, Bay City Rollers, ABBA, Boney M, KC and The Sunshine Band... smack dab in the middle of the 70's. It was a revelation when I started to go through the back catalog (the first album I bought was A New World Record, and then worked my way back). They were and are special, but as you widen your listening, you start putting things into perspective.
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Post by Helmut83 on Jul 2, 2022 9:36:04 GMT
Ok where to start? No I don't have anything against 13 yr old females. To suggest that is as silly as an ABBA song. ELO was always fresh and new and nothing like anyone else. They did things the Beatles didn't do, John Lennon said so himself. Strings may not have been invented By ELO but they were perfected in that application. Joni Mitchel doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jeff Lynne. Joni Mitchell - on the other hand - IS groundbreaking. That you don't like her doesn't change that fact. Why is ELO not groundbreaking and Joni Mitchell is? I thought the criteria you were using to define "groundbreaking" was popularity, but then Joni Mitchell wasn't that popular, not much more than ELO anyway and nowhere at the height of Paul McCartney, ABBA or others mentioned.
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Post by Timeblue on Jul 2, 2022 9:44:15 GMT
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Post by Helmut83 on Jul 2, 2022 9:51:25 GMT
I have no opinion on the greatest composition. Technically, it might be Twilight. Most popular is definitely Mr. Blue Sky. I can't imagine All Over The World being even close. I base this on the number of plays in advertisements, films, cover versions etc. as well as crowd reactions in concerts. If you look at Spotify plays, Mr. Blue Sky is so far ahead of any other track - 685 million plays, with Don't Bring Me Down on second, with 201 million plays. Last Train to London has well over 100 million views on YouTube. I'm not sure if that makes it more popular than any of the songs you mentioned, but I wonder why it's ELO's most viewed YouTube video? That's Argentina, with the help of a few other Hispanoamerican countries. There's a story behind it. Argentina football national team player Alberto Tarantini played for Birmingham City during the time Discovery came out. Tarantini met Jeff Lynne through England national team player Trevor Francis (who played for Birmingham as well), and apparently they liked each other, so they reached a minor level of friendship, often sharing parties and with Tarantini attending ELO concerts and being invited by Jeff to the backstage. When Tarantini returned to Argentina he brought with him a copy of Discovery and took it to a very important radio from Buenos Aires. The radio started playing it and the whole record became quite popular, with "Last Train to London" peaking at insane heights (up to quite recently, it was the foreign song that had stood at #1 for the longest). It's to these days one of the biggest foreign hits ever.
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Post by janne on Jul 3, 2022 8:15:42 GMT
Joni Mitchell - on the other hand - IS groundbreaking. That you don't like her doesn't change that fact. Why is ELO not groundbreaking and Joni Mitchell is? I thought the criteria you were using to define "groundbreaking" was popularity, but then Joni Mitchell wasn't that popular, not much more than ELO anyway and nowhere at the height of Paul McCartney, ABBA or others mentioned. I don't think popularity equals groundbreaking. Harry Styles is extremely popular, but does he break new ground in music? I don't think so. And to be clear, I did not intend for this to be a contest between Joni Mitchell and Jeff Lynne, I love them both. I mentioned Mitchell as one example of the absolute best songwriters in the world, and I also mentioned Paul McCartney, Paul Simon and Bob Dylan. But since you asked why Mitchell is considered groundbreaking: I think Joni Mitchell is unique in her blend of pop, rock, folk, classical and jazz music. She has covered so many genres, so successfully. She was of course pivotal in the folk movement in the late 60's and beginning of the 70's, with songs such as Woodstock, Both Sides Now, Big Yellow Taxi, Chelsea Morning etc. Her album Blue is probably the blueprint (no pun intended) for confessional songwriting, with artists such as Dylan following her with his own Blood On The Tracks. She broke completely new ground with albums like The Hissing of Summer Lawns, combining jazz, pop and African rhythms. She collaborated with renowned jazz musician Charles Mingus on the album Mingus. She is one of the most prolific guitar players of all time, she has written songs in 50 different tunings. Her music has been used in musicals, ballets and has inspired poems and paintings. As far as awards and honors go, she have received most of them. To name but a few: - She has been appointed the Companion of the Order of Canada, Canada's highest civilian honor. - She has been awarded ten Grammy Awards. - In 2015, Rolling Stone Magazine ranked Joni Mitchell ninth on their list of the 100 greatest songwriters of all time. (Jeff Lynne is not on the list, but Björn Ulvaeus and Benny Andersson of ABBA is, at number 100.) See the list here: www.rollingstone.com/interactive/lists-100-greatest-songwriters/#bob-dylan- In 2021, Mitchell received the Kennedy Center Honor for a lifetime of achievement in the performing arts.
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