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Post by StrangeMagic on Mar 14, 2020 5:41:27 GMT
I've done some research into the Bev/Jeff rift over the years. Much of what I found was single-source, but the tale hung together pretty well. It seems Bev solemnly promised Jeff about some things he would and wouldn't do when he organized ELO Part II. It looks like Bev broke his word on almost every promise he made. I'm not sharing any details because as I said, the information I found was single-source, but pieces of it were from several sources, and the pieces formed a coherent whole. This is a problem I've been facing with my book - so much information about ELO is either from a single source, or only makes sense if put together with other details. In most cases, I found that it's possible to present multiple sides of any one story, but is it right to expect readers to form their own conclusions? When it comes to Part II, my understanding is that Bev and Jeff negotiated through their lawyers before this new band even played a single note together, including the condition that Kelly absolutely was not to be involved at any level. After settling out of court back in October 1983, it was agreed that Kelly wouldn't be able to continue profiting from his connection to ELO, yet it didn't take long for Part II to announce a UK tour with OrKestra advertised as its opening act. From what I've been told, Jeff hired private detectives to buy tickets for these shows and report back on certain observations, including whether Kelly in particular was exploiting this loophole. To ensure that royalty calculations were correct, these investigators were also told to document setlists. However, it's safe to say that their biggest finding concerned Mik, Hugh (for a while until his departure, at least) and Kelly especially turning up as more than just special guests. Kelly was reportedly taking on an increasing number of lead vocals, and precisely a decade after being legally excommunicated from ELO, he'd somehow managed to negotiate his way into being recognised as an official member of Part II just in time to contribute on this outfit's second album, Moment Of Truth. Agreeing not to include Kelly in Part II was the main promise I've heard Bev made to Jeff when they signed the contract to use the ELO name, and Bev broke it almost immediately, perhaps because Kelly was a fan favorite. Jeff didn't want Kelly to benefit from ELO after feeling the sting of the lawsuit.
Other agreements between Jeff and Bev I've run across involved who was in the band, how the band was billed, which songs would be performed, when and how Jeff would be paid royalties and a percentage of profits, and other business arrangements, not a single one of which was honored to the letter, according to various single sources that may or may not be reliable.
But when the puzzle pieces are fitted together, whether each is accurate or not, it adds up to a great deal being asked of Jeff to forgive his old band mate, even after all these years.
Thanks, ShardEnder, for the thorough explanation.
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Post by lasttrain929 on Mar 14, 2020 17:55:00 GMT
I have often wondered why Melvyn Gale has never been asked back into the fold. He is a talented musician and was part of the classic lineup. I remember him playing the bar saloon piano solo in Wild West hero. As far as I’m aware he never took any part in any other formations of ELO (I stand to be corrected) so I wonder why Jeff never brought him in along with Richard. Forgive me if this has already been discussed.
Thanks, ShardEnder, a great read.....
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Post by ShardEnder on Mar 14, 2020 19:05:24 GMT
I completely forgot to address these in my earlier post (which I'd been hoping to make a comprehensive one), but a few very good points have been raised...
First of all, while Kelly definitely wasn't listed as an official member of ELO Part II from the beginning and certainly didn't contribute to their first album together, fans quickly became aware of him being involved with the group in a live capacity. The official explanation was that he'd been appearing as a special guest with opening act OrKestra, but Jeff's lawyers noted this loophole being exploited, and it probably came as little surprise to anyone when the terms were renegotiated later on, allowing him to be properly recognised. Also, Bev did indeed find himself on the receiving end of negativity for pushing Part II as some kind of direct continuation from ELO rather than a separate entity. In this day and age, I can imagine their albums and any advertisements for concerts having to include some degree of small print emphasising that Jeff had an equal stake in the band's actual name, though he wouldn't be directly involved. If anything, it wouldn't surprise me if the Part II case was a precedent of sorts for other examples where groups carry on without key personnel, which is now a lot more common.
Speaking of certain individuals, let's not forget that Phil Bates has taken much of the heat for promoting his post-Part II activity by trading on the ELO connection, often claiming this to be the work of regional promoters. I've even seen fans remarking on his appearance not being a million miles removed from that of "Mr. Blue Sky" himself, which could arguably be interpreted as a further act of deception. I won't defend him entirely, but at the same time I will comment that I've seen evidence of other former ELO/Part II members being marketed in a way that leans on this association. When I saw David Scott-Morgan just over a year ago, he was genuinely surprised to see that his show was being advertised using a flyer that prominently included the iconic ELO jukebox logo and rightly opted not to sign a copy of this someone presented for him. To be fair, his setlist only contained a small handful of ELO tracks, with the main bulk of his performance showcasing solo material (but nothing from Earthrise, much to my disappointment).
Now, I might be wrong on this next detail, but I'm fairly sure that Mel was never approached about possibly joining Part II. Richard was definitely asked when Bev initially came up with the idea in November 1988, and I seem to recall this offer coming around the same time he was winding down as a studio musician, with the Tandy Morgan Band coming to an end around that period - The BC Collection was put together after this group was no longer an active project. Of course, Richard went on to make some notable contributions to Armchair Theatre, and the sessions for that album likely overlapped those for the self-titled debut from Part II, so it's reasonable to assume he chose loyalty to Jeff over lending this new group further musical credibility as a successor to ELO, which I'm sure was their intention in hoping that he'd join. By contrast, Mel wasn't doing much with anyone by the end of the '80s. During one of the few interviews he's given in recent years, it seems as if he wasn't entirely happy with how the core band chose to dismiss him, and rather than carry on as a musician, he switched to running a small yet highly productive pressing plant for nearly two decades. Saying that, I love knowing that he went to see Part II on a few occasions and even caught up with some of his old friends, yet resisted the opportunity to appear on stage with them.
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Post by lasttrain929 on Mar 14, 2020 19:39:30 GMT
Thanks ShardEnder, some great information, you know your stuff.
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Post by finberty on Mar 20, 2020 19:35:42 GMT
Interesting stuff from Shardender and StrangeMagic - thanks.
This completely changes my view of this issue. If agreements with Jeff were routinely broken, and then add-in the doomed Zoom tour which must have been difficult to deal with, I can understand that Jeff may decide to look forwards rather than backwards.
Previousy I had tended towards the view that Jeff was somehow in the wrong and was being stubborn - without any evidence of my own. The additional recent detail switches my sympathies completely.
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Post by Grroosss on Mar 21, 2020 1:19:06 GMT
Interesting stuff from Shardender and StrangeMagic - thanks. This completely changes my view of this issue. If agreements with Jeff were routinely broken, and then add-in the doomed Zoom tour which must have been difficult to deal with, I can understand that Jeff may decide to look forwards rather than backwards. Previousy I had tended towards the view that Jeff was somehow in the wrong and was being stubborn - without any evidence of my own. The additional recent detail switches my sympathies completely. This perfectly sums up my feelings, too. Of course, 'cos I'm an optimist, I'll go on hoping that someday Jeff and Bev might talk to each other again, though I certainly don't expect it to happen. And I'll go on listening to ELO Part II's songs occasionally, and to Jeff Lynne's ELO's songs much more frequently than those, even though I don't consider either of them to fully be ELO. If anything, this has served as a reminder to me that I can't be so quick to judge in situations where really I know nothing about the details or the personal lives of those involved. There were likely places that both Bev and Jeff were in the wrong and in the right, since no one is perfect, but I'll never know the full story--and frankly it doesn't matter; I've made my peace with the issue. I'm glad that both of them have been able to move on, and I'm certainly overjoyed to be alive in a time where Jeff is touring and releasing new music and is genuinely enjoying it, and to have had the opportunity to meet him during this time. (My lasting impression of Jeff will always be a positive one, since he seemed a very nice bloke to me--but that only allows me to judge my personal experience. )
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Post by BSJ on Mar 21, 2020 1:31:17 GMT
"I'm certainly overjoyed to be alive in a time where Jeff is touring and releasing new music"
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Post by trekkielo on Apr 20, 2020 4:17:45 GMT
I've done some research into the Bev/Jeff rift over the years. Much of what I found was single-source, but the tale hung together pretty well. It seems Bev solemnly promised Jeff about some things he would and wouldn't do when he organized ELO Part II. It looks like Bev broke his word on almost every promise he made. I'm not sharing any details because as I said, the information I found was single-source, but pieces of it were from several sources, and the pieces formed a coherent whole. This is a problem I've been facing with my book - so much information about ELO is either from a single source, or only makes sense if put together with other details. In most cases, I found that it's possible to present multiple sides of any one story, but is it right to expect readers to form their own conclusions? When it comes to Part II, my understanding is that Bev and Jeff negotiated through their lawyers before this new band even played a single note together, including the condition that Kelly absolutely was not to be involved at any level. After settling out of court back in October 1983, it was agreed that Kelly wouldn't be able to continue profiting from his connection to ELO, yet it didn't take long for Part II to announce a UK tour with OrKestra advertised as its opening act. From what I've been told, Jeff hired private detectives to buy tickets for these shows and report back on certain observations, including whether Kelly in particular was exploiting this loophole. To ensure that royalty calculations were correct, these investigators were also told to document setlists. However, it's safe to say that their biggest finding concerned Mik, Hugh (for a while until his departure, at least) and Kelly especially turning up as more than just special guests. Kelly was reportedly taking on an increasing number of lead vocals, and precisely a decade after being legally excommunicated from ELO, he'd somehow managed to negotiate his way into being recognised as an official member of Part II just in time to contribute on this outfit's second album, Moment Of Truth. I completely forgot to address these in my earlier post (which I'd been hoping to make a comprehensive one), but a few very good points have been raised... First of all, while Kelly definitely wasn't listed as an official member of ELO Part II from the beginning and certainly didn't contribute to their first album together, fans quickly became aware of him being involved with the group in a live capacity. The official explanation was that he'd been appearing as a special guest with opening act OrKestra, but Jeff's lawyers noted this loophole being exploited, and it probably came as little surprise to anyone when the terms were renegotiated later on, allowing him to be properly recognised. Kelly Groucutt was first recognized as an official member of ELO Part II on their Electric Light Orchestra Part Two performing ELO's Greatest Hits Live featuring the Moscow Symphony Orchestra album in 1992!
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Post by Timeblue on Apr 20, 2020 7:25:01 GMT
Kelly Grocutt?
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Post by helli on Apr 20, 2020 9:38:55 GMT
he wanted to remain anonymous because Jeff shouldn't notice any of it ..
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Post by lasttrain929 on Apr 20, 2020 9:39:47 GMT
Yes this rules out G.U. RUTTOCK on secret messages. Maybe didn’t like his middle name!!!
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Post by ShardEnder on Apr 21, 2020 2:36:04 GMT
After carrying out further research into the matter of when exactly Kelly joined ELO Part II as an official member, it's getting harder with every new source I check... He was supposedly prohibited from being involved with the sessions for this band's first album, yet he's present in the Honest Men promo clip and was fully credited on the aforementioned Birmingham '91 show in both its CD and VHS forms. Curiously, while I recall the video being sold in the UK, its CD counterpart is only listed on Discogs as having American and Canadian editions - that can't possibly be right. I've also found some biographies online that suggest Part II was an extension of OrKestra, yet there were concerts as late as the end of the 1992 tour when this group still featured as an opening act and was promoted as such, performing tracks in support of Beyond The Dream. At the very least, Mik made one guest appearance on the self-titled Part II album, Hugh left quite early on, and Kelly was able to contribute to Moment Of Truth. Because of how difficult it seems to get anyone to speak about this period in ELO's wider history now, I'm finding it virtually impossible to ascertain these crucial details. If I don't want my book being delayed more than is absolutely necessary, I'll probably need to drop a planned chapter on Part II and condense their existence down to a few paragraphs, which I feel does everyone a great disservice. Still, the scope of my project was always meant to be primarily ELO's activity over the course of the 1980s, though I'd have preferred not to drastically switch from more in-depth analysis of the every move made by its various personnel to providing mere snapshots.
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Post by Timeblue on Apr 21, 2020 7:17:00 GMT
The mystery deepens! I have the Birmingham show on video somewhere.
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Post by Horacewimp on Apr 21, 2020 8:45:55 GMT
The mystery deepens! I have the Birmingham show on video somewhere. I have somewhere, my father in law saved it to a dvd for me I noticed I still have it the other day, one of these nights when Mrs Wimp Is at work I’ll watch it again.
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Post by lawrev on Sept 16, 2021 20:17:04 GMT
The only way we would truly know what the legal agreement(s) were when Bev started up Part II would be to see the unredacted legal documents themselves. And that is not likely.
As for whether Jeff had to "forgive" a lot in signing the agreement(s) with Bev and in connection with Kelly's role, that would assume there was no basis for Kelly's lawsuit against Jeff and Jet Records in the first place. That itself is also questionable because Jeff did settle rather than deal with the ugliness of a former band member providing evidence that he provided important musical input into Mr. Blue Sky or Strange Magic (two songs often cited as possibilities). So maybe forgive is not the proper word. Perhaps "tolerate" is.
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