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Post by elosimms on Nov 29, 2019 20:20:55 GMT
The first ELO single I got was Confusion, so that's 40 years ago. I was given Discovery for Christmas 1979. I have just listened to Hello my old friend for the first time all the way through. What an amazing experience. I must confess that I wasn't a massive fan of all the synths on Secret Messages. 'Time' had a good balance imho. But I'm completely blown away by that first listen to HMOF. Remarkable piece of work...and it never made the one disc original album....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 22:25:54 GMT
If there is some kind of award for The Best Song That Was Left Off An Album, HMOF wins it, surely.
When The Suits decided that SM could not be a double, did Jeff Lynne himself do the trimming/decision making on the tracklist?
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Post by Timeblue on Nov 29, 2019 22:48:44 GMT
I have what I term 'headphone nights' where I sit in our conservatory with the lights off,put on my phones turned up loud,a glass of something (normally red wine) and just immerse myself in whatever I fancy listening to. 'Hello My Old Friend' is a brilliant track to do this to! Being dark,it kind of heightens the expectations because nothing distracts you, give it a go...
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Post by Timeblue on Nov 29, 2019 23:14:12 GMT
A bit like the best moments on Time thread, you could do the same on this song alone. Namely, the hook after the line 'Pretty rainbows over your majestic towers', and the 2nd time he sings this line he leaves just a split second gap between 'majestic' and 'towers' awesome!
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Post by tightrope on Nov 29, 2019 23:41:28 GMT
I have what I term 'headphone nights' where I sit in our conservatory with the lights off,put on my phones turned up loud,a glass of something (normally red wine) and just immerse myself in whatever I fancy listening to. 'Hello My Old Friend' is a brilliant track to do this to! Being dark,it kind of heightens the expectations because nothing distracts you, give it a go... In 1981 when Time first came out, a local radio station played it in it's entirety. I sat up late and listened to it with headphones on with lights off and was completely blown away.
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Post by StrangeMagic on Nov 30, 2019 20:11:17 GMT
If there is some kind of award for The Best Song That Was Left Off An Album, HMOF wins it, surely. When The Suits decided that SM could not be a double, did Jeff Lynne himself do the trimming/decision making on the tracklist? I don't think Jeff gave much input into which songs were trimmed for the single album version of Secret Messages. For example, I know the first side is the same in both versions because... well, I'll let ShardEnder answer.
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Post by ShardEnder on Dec 2, 2019 5:20:13 GMT
I'll try and keep this short (famous last words)...
As some of you may already know, Jeff never sequenced any of ELO's albums using the multitrack tapes. Instead, he'd rearrange finished stereo mixdowns, which explains why the eventual first side of Secret Messages was "locked in" early into the process of coming up with a running order. In my conversations with Bill Bottrell via e-mail, I was surprised to learn that he was directly involved with this stage of creating Secret Messages, and that the earliest attempt at a tracklist dates to before the band took a break for the holidays in December 1982 (during this period, they'd film the promo video for Rock 'N' Roll Is King, confirming that at least this song existed by then). Here's that initial tracklist:
A: Secret Messages/Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Take Me On And On B: Train Of Gold/Time After Time/"Instrumental" (After All*)/Endless Lies/Hello My Old Friend C: Stranger/No Way Out/Beatles Forever/Letter From Spain/Mandalay D: Four Little Diamonds/Buildings Have Eyes/Danger Ahead/Rock ‘N’ Roll Is King
*I've only listed After All this way because that's how it appeared in Bill's production notes, with this page being the last of his book for 1982, which helped determine the date of its assembly.
At this point, the album as a whole was still to have been called Unexpected Moments, and Jet/CBS was fully anticipating delivery of a finished product ahead of a planned December '82 release, likely to coincide with its lead single. Of course, that didn't happen because Jeff returned to Wisseloord Studios early the following year with only Bill to engineer further overdubs, remixes and what turned out to be the first of several tracklist alterations. However, you'll see that in addition to the opening side already being intact, Rock 'N' Roll Is King was to end the entire album, including the "welcome to the show" tag. During this period, Jeff (with a little help from Bill) came up with the idea to rename the album Secret Messages, which also saw its sequence revised slightly:
A: Secret Messages/Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Take Me On And On B: Stranger/No Way Out/Beatles Forever/Letter From Spain/Mandalay C: Train Of Gold/Danger Ahead/After All/Endless Lies/Hello My Old Friend D: Four Little Diamonds/Buildings Have Eyes/Time After Time/Rock ‘N’ Roll Is King
Again, side one remains, and much of the eventual second side is now in place, plus we have Rock 'N' Roll Is King closing the album once more, suggesting that Jeff was happy with this decision. Also, note that the placement of Endless Lies and Hello My Old Friend survives from the earlier sequencing effort - presumably these were joined by the same "moving right along" interlude first heard (officially, at least) on last year's 2LP reissue and found on the last known vintage 2LP assembly directly before Hello My Old Friend, where it was once described by fans who'd heard this as a short wind-like intro. The next assembly to be documented comes from 3-4-83, but sadly we only know the contents of its second disc from that surfacing on eBay several years ago, giving us this piece of a much bigger puzzle:
C: Train Of Gold/Danger Ahead/Endless Lies/Hello My Old Friend D: Four Little Diamonds/Buildings Have Eyes/Time After Time/After All/Rock ‘N’ Roll Is King
Now, here's where the final tracklist really starts to take shape, along with offering us a few clues as to where the 2018 version might have been sourced from. Endless Lies and Hello My Old Friend are yet again connected by the "moving right along" piece, while the "plant a tree" interlude is attached to the end of Buildings Have Eyes. Time After Time and After All have finally found a home, plus Rock 'N' Roll Is King is... I'm sure you get the picture with that song by now! Oh, and the "thank you for listening" message appears directly before Rock 'N' Roll Is King, but what about the first disc? I think it's safe to conclude that its opening side wasn't changed, leaving us with the same five songs that comprised the third side of the earliest-known test pressing. Conclusive? Hardly, but considering how little the first four of these tracks moved around in relation to each other on earlier acetates, that does point to this being the case. Besides, there is precedent of Jeff really wanting Hello My Old Friend as the last track on some side, even if it wasn't quite yet where it eventually ended up, though we'll get to that soon, because Bill confirmed that he left the project after the completion of one last assembly on 3-11-83, which all involved felt was the definitive running order:
A: Secret Messages/Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Take Me On And On B: Stranger/No Way Out/Beatles Forever/Letter From Spain/Danger Ahead C: Four Little Diamonds/Train Of Gold/Endless Lies/Buildings Have Eyes/Rock ‘N’ Roll Is King D: Mandalay/Time After Time/After All/Hello My Old Friend
Just before you dash off to recreate this, it should be noted that Secret Messages (the title track, that is) was switched out for an alternate version featuring some longer instrumental parts, different lead vocal takes and a more guitar-heavy mix. Although I've not heard this myself, it's been documented by quite a few people, and Bill himself confirmed that it was done in Los Angeles during the mastering stage, specifically at Soundcastle Studios - the facility he left to become a freelance engineer/producer, with Secret Messages his first job in this capacity. I'm guessing he was still on good terms with the studio's owner, who probably didn't want to turn down such a high profile client. Oh, and there's the matter of Letter From Spain having an interlude between this and Danger Ahead that yet to be heard by most: Jeff singing "we never say anything bad" in reverse over a repeated pattern similar to that of other link sections. If I had to guess at why he cut this in favour of the "plant a tree" piece, it's likely because his voice sounds eerily different to what you may be comfortable with from him, which says a lot when you take into account that he's almost impossible to recognise on much of Mandalay, never mind that Endless Lies borders on being something you could pass off as a long-lost Roy Orbison outtake. I've been fortunate enough to sample this under strict conditions, and I'd say it's closer to Idle Race than ELO. Maybe it was too different?
As a side note, it was an absolute highlight of my time researching ELO in general when Bill first told me he was called about whether he wanted the job of engineering a session for ELO in late 1978. He took the actual call in the middle of the night, accepting without hesitation as a fan of the band already. A self-described Anglophile, he studied their work on the drive to "work" using whatever albums were in his possession, hoping to figure out how all their sonic trademarks were achieved. Thankfully, it turned out that he didn't really need to put so much effort in, because Jeff walked in with Richard carrying what they dubbed The Dream Machine, a massive synthesiser capable of reproducing ELO's distinctive keyboard flourishes at the touch of a button. Based on the time of this recording for the earliest demo of what Bill later recognised as All Over The World, I'm fairly sure this keyboard was none other than the CS-80, which Richard first received later into the '78 tour as part of his endorsement deal with Yamaha, going on to use this perhaps most prominently on Discovery and its music videos. Indeed, it remained his go-to synth until the early '80s, when he upgraded to a full Oberheim rig, comprising the OB-Xa keyboard, DMX drum machine and DSX sequencer, used extensively for Secret Messages.
Returning from that lengthy diversion (which I hope you all enjoyed even a fraction as much as I did), the 3-11-83 acetates for Secret Messages end with another slight twist. You see, while Hello My Old Friend now concludes the album, its tag wasn't quite yet where you'd expect it to be, instead following the main track's fade out after ten seconds or so of what is known as "leader" or blank tape. One final variation can be found exclusively on CBS-branded promotional cassettes sent out to select retailers, radio stations, journalists and even members of ELO ahead of a planned release on 11 April '83. For this last amendment, which really is the definitive running order, the gap between Hello My Old Friend and the "welcome to the show" segment had been reduced to what is heard on the 2018 version. So, for those complaining about how jarring that fade out then fade back in was, it's another vintage decision! To be fair, Bill did admit that Jeff was under a lot of pressure to hand over a finished product, and his opinion some of the alterations made after the break in December '82 were a little sloppy. Upon closer inspection of some edits on the high resolution edition of the 2018 assembly, I have to agree, but that's not really the point I'm here to make at the moment.
In the end, all of this work was for nothing, because CBS used the oil crisis to justify demanding that Jeff cut what should have been the final release under ELO's existing contract down to a single disc. I've been told that the real cause was a certain Jet Records head breathing down their necks about wanting to squeeze as much from his biggest golden goose as he could, knowing that Secret Messages being split into two albums would mean potentially greater sales over a longer run. Naturally, this business decision only worked if all involved assume that Jeff was happy to go on tour for two separate albums, when in reality he'd already told the rest of the group that he just wanted Secret Messages to launch without any promotional activity outside its music videos, as Discovery proved was a financially viable option for him. (Actually, this isn't quite how they found out his plans, but I'll save you an even longer post!)
To conclude, Jeff alone made the decision of what to keep from previous test sequences, and he likely reverted back to the 3-4-83 version of the first side because of not being entirely happy with the attempt at remixing Secret Messages, this being one of the very few times he'd significantly worked on a track beyond the recording/mixing phase. I could bring mention the other rate instance of when he applied an EQ filter to the introduction of Telephone Line, but that's not relevant to the period I'm covering here. Still, it's further proof of how rare it was for Jeff to deviate from his working method.
By the end of the Secret Messages project, I get the impression that Jeff wanted Hello My Old Friend to round off the entire album, but to do this on a single LP would mean less space for other tracks he also wanted to see included. To this end, he replaced it with Rock 'N' Roll Is King, which already existed in a form that had both the "thank you for listening" and "welcome to the show" pieces attached, this being the 3-4-83 version. Now, there was room to preserve another detail consistent on every previous assembly: Four Little Diamonds serving as the opening song of a side. With a few last minute changes to the interludes, which saw "plant a tree" moved to between Stranger and Danger Ahead, the single LP was submitted to Jet/CBS in time to join a heavily delayed Rock 'N' Roll Is King on shelves in June, both receiving new artwork. (For those who've not seen the original print advert for Rock 'N' Roll Is King, this used the same shade of red for its font that was used prominently in the scrapped sleeve artwork for its parent album, which was eventually recycled into a promo poster. Also, it featured a chequered pattern that might have been a little too close to that associated with 2 Tone Records, which may help to explain why this single had its video filmed in December '82, yet didn't end up being released until over six months later.)
I realise this response is probably much longer than many of you wanted, but there's so much nuance and historical context that needs to be taken into consideration. Furthermore, I see it as an opportunity to exercise my writing skills ahead of putting all this information into that book I've spent the last few years working on between real world commitments. I'd hoped to have this finished in time for its release to coincide with that of Jeff's latest album, though I was recently provided a few details that I'm sure will make up for the extra wait.
To end with one very quick (I promise this time!) related point, I always found it odd that the final cover design for Secret Messages is so clearly a reference to the lyrics of Hello My Old Friend, suggesting that was dropped from the running order at the last possible minute. Sure, this song might only have appeared as the closing track on the 3-11-83 test pressing, but I genuinely feel those earlier attempts at a running order weren't meant to be definitive, and that Hello My Old Friend was always intended as an important statement. From its musically referencing 10538 Overture (and I Am The Walrus) to arguably being the most progressive composition he'd written in almost a decade, it's an absolute showcase of all his skills, and it speaks volumes that he felt it didn't work on Balance Of Power, yet only Endless Lies was remixed for what turned out to be his final album under the ELO name as part of his existing contract with Jet, while the likes of Mandalay and No Way Out also stayed in the vault until their appearance on the Afterglow compilation. As for After All, that quickly surfaced in its longer form as a b-side, as did Buildings Have Eyes, and Video! recycled elements from Beatles Forever.
Well, I hope you found the answer somewhere in all this!
P.S. Try cranking up the volume on that "plant a tree" interlude as it appeared as the intro to Danger Ahead and you might just hear the last few beats of Buildings Have Eyes, confirming where this was lifted from. I'm only providing this extra detail in case anyone objects to me agreeing with Bill in so much as that some of Jeff's editing got a little rougher than usual as the Secret Messages sessions rolled into '83, because this is one of the more audible examples I can think of. If you're still not convinced, just check out the abrupt edit from the "thank you for listening" interlude at the end of Four Little Diamonds going into Train Of Gold, for that's where Jeff put this on the 3-4-83 and 3-11-83 test pressings. Even now, I must resist switching this around on my own CDR approximation of the final vintage 2LP running order, or more precisely the aforementioned promo tape that CBS instructed all with a copy to return, including that belonging to ELO's own blue violinist, Mik Kaminski himself. As one last gift, here's what this includes, with comments on any specific details:
A: Secret Messages/Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Take Me On And On For the first side, you can get away with using the 2018 versions, or even the recent Blu-spec CD2 edition, if you've got this already.
B: Stranger/No Way Out/Beatles Forever/Letter From Spain/Danger Ahead You probably won't have Beatles Forever and the "we never say anything bad" interlude that goes before Danger Ahead, but the rest can be taken from the 2018 2LP set or its Blu-spec CD2 equivalent again. You could always use the repeated "plant a tree" from the single album and last year's expanded reissue, even if that isn't 100% authentic to Jeff's original vision. Saying that, unless you have these two missing elements, is that ever going to be possible?
C: Four Little Diamonds/Train Of Gold/Endless Lies/Buildings Have Eyes/Rock 'N' Roll Is King Now, here's where a degree of editing skill is required. To start with, Four Little Diamonds should be the alternate version with a slightly longer intro, which can only be found on the Afterglow retrospective. For this, I'd recommend only copying over the introduction then cutting into the 2018 edition, which has vastly superior sound quality. (Incredibly, the 3-4-83 version of Four Little Diamonds has even more at this part, with Jeff saying "right" immediately after the vocalised notes that follow his "how's it go?" question! Don't you just love Jeff talking to himself via the magic of multitracking?) Also, don't forget that Train Of Gold begins with the "listen to the music" interlude. To be more precise, the acetates probably had this banded onto the end of Four Little Diamonds, though I've noticed there's little consistency as to whether such link pieces are to go at the end or start of tracks. On the 1983 single LP, they served as opening sections, yet Bill and another source I've been in touch with say they were regarded as being connected to the end of preceding songs, the only exceptions being when these opened a side. However, it seems as if Hello My Old Friend was an exception to that rule, based on the track lengths once provided by Rob Caiger. Confused yet? Fear not, because from this point, all four remaining songs can be lifted directly from the 2018 double album, though you'll need to replace "moving right along" after Endless Lies with "thank you for listening" from between After All and Hello My Old Friend.
D: Mandalay/Time After Time/After All/Hello My Old Friend You should already know to restore "moving right along" to the start of Hello My Old Friend, but can I just round up this post by remarking on how effective that prolonged final note of Mandalay is? Chilling isn't a strong enough word, and then you have that most unexpected smash cut into the opening drum fill of Time After Time. As someone who only knew this song from it fading out in its Afterglow guise, that was the best kind of shock.
That was exhausting, yet rewarding, nonetheless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 2:00:56 GMT
Shardender, I bow to your great knowledge of SM, and I thank you for this.
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Post by Grroosss on Dec 4, 2019 7:44:02 GMT
ShardEnder, I will never cease to be amazed at your incredible depth of ELO knowledge. Very cool read, thanks.
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Post by Mattster-Vinyl on Dec 11, 2019 23:20:36 GMT
Hi Shardender, thank you so much for the info above on Secret Messages. I've just spent a enjoyable evening make a definitive version with all the extra interludes/endings/startings as you detailed above.
I know this may start a debate... I prefer early 1983 running order:
A: Secret Messages/Loser Gone Wild/Bluebird/Take Me On And On B: Stranger/No Way Out/Beatles Forever/Letter From Spain/Mandalay C: Train Of Gold/Danger Ahead/After All/Endless Lies/Hello My Old Friend D: Four Little Diamonds/Buildings Have Eyes/Time After Time/Rock ‘N’ Roll Is King
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 0:05:06 GMT
I always thought that having Time After Time so close to Hello My Old Friend was wrong. They both have the same flavour, so to speak. Imagine starting the record with Hello My Old Friend!! Ok....maybe not....
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Post by ShardEnder on Dec 12, 2019 18:53:14 GMT
Apart from on the 3-11-83 acetates, it's true that every other version of Secret Messages ends with Rock 'N' Roll Is King. While I do agree that this works better as a conclusion because of how well the "welcome to the show" album tag was integrated, Hello My Old Friend is such a grand statement that it doesn't really fit anywhere except as the closing track - especially when you consider that it was intended as a musical bookend of sorts to 10538 Overture, never mind the fact it brings ELO's career full circle in both its lyrics waving goodbye to the band's hometown as a metaphor for Jeff drawing a line under the group, this being the last song to be released under his existing contract (or at least that would have been the case if CBS hadn't intervened). I don't claim to have any direct insight into Jeff's creative process, but I suspect those early test pressings weren't meant to be definitive, and the single album's problem is that it ends with a back-to-basics rocker, a formula that was first used on Discovery and would continue all the way up to Balance Of Power, if we ignore the brief Epilogue that rounds off Time. In my conversations with Bill Bottrell, he suggested that the 3-11-83 running order is the last one both himself and Jeff approved, though he wasn't around for when the single album was sequenced. For the sake of convenience and a need to make room for more commercially appealing tracks, I'm guessing Hello My Old Friend was dropped in favour of Rock 'N' Roll Is King in a mix that already existed, complete with the overall album tag present. Besides, it doesn't work outside its originally intended context, and I can't even imagine listening to the 3-4-83 assembly... The short edit of After All as anything except an introduction to Hello My Old Friend?!
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