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Post by Chippa on Sept 25, 2014 2:45:12 GMT
Rob's font makes me feel like I'm having a stroke. No, that's not a double entendre, given 88 Keys post re: growling.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 25, 2014 2:55:46 GMT
Rob's font makes me feel like I'm having a stroke. No, that's not a double entendre, given 88 Keys post re: growling. My sincerest empty apologies, sir. Dammit... now I have to use the ungly font, too.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 26, 2014 1:56:27 GMT
'Not to derail the puppy appreciation, but:
Jrmugz,
The chances of you converting people to Catholicism or any other form of Christianity on an internet message board are quite low.
Some of us on this planet are capable of living our lives in a reasonable and responsible manner independent of the Word of God. This should be made plain by the very fact that humas lived for hundreds of thousands of years before any of the three major monotheisms existed. More than that, a small handful of us nonbelievers are vastly more "conservative" than any Christian alive today in some ways, to the point where people similar to yourself have and would continue to consider us uncaring, brutal and evil.
I personally don't agree with famous contemporary atheists such as Hitchens and Dawkins who have made the claim (or variations of it) that "religion poisons eveything". Religion could very well just manipulate and use what's already present in people to begin with. Some people are drawn to religion or a particular religion and are accepting of it, some people are drawn to spirituality but not to organized religion, while others have no personal use for any transcendental thought, etc.
I guess the whole point I'm trying to make (as a sleep deprived zombie) is that you have to take into account huge varieties of personality, background, levles of intelligence and temperment when proselytising. Religion isn't for everyone and could never be for everyone. Hi Rob2095, I have a whole bunch of questions, to help us get on the same page: 1) How do you define a religion? If it's a set of beliefs that connects you with what you believe is true, then doesn't that mean that your body of beliefs is a religion too, just not an organized one? 2) In your personal thinking, is it possible that early history was looking forward to a god figure, and now in the present we look back to the god figure (Jesus)? That God decided to reveal Himself slowly, just we evolved slowly before we became human beings? 3) What's your definition of conservative? To me it just me holding to traditional values about life, marriage, etc. and common sense about human nature and economics, etc. 4) I competely understand that everybody comes froms a very unique experience that shapes who they are and how they think today. I'm wondering out loud here, what the best way is to balance that with stating what we believe? From my experience, it's seems like most of us are on the same page and have the same beliefs about most things when we are pushed on the issues. The thing that pushes us and helps us see what we believe are questions about what we believe so we can really think through our beliefs and sort them out. Jim
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 26, 2014 23:53:41 GMT
Hi Rob2095, I have a whole bunch of questions, to help us get on the same page: 1) How do you define a religion? If it's a set of beliefs that connects you with what you believe is true, then doesn't that mean that your body of beliefs is a religion too, just not an organized one? I've usually thought of religion as the belief in and worship of a God, but you're right in that the definition doesn't necessarily imply the involvement of a God or of Gods. As for my own body of beliefs: most of the views I hold are not based on beliefs and are not the results of wishful thinking, quite the opposite. They're based on observation, cold reasoning and arriving at tentative conclusions which don't exactly make one feel ecstatic about the present and downright depressed about the future. 2) In your personal thinking, is it possible that early history was looking forward to a god figure, and now in the present we look back to the god figure (Jesus)? That God decided to reveal Himself slowly, just we evolved slowly before we became human beings? I think it's more likely that humans have been conceptualizing a supreme force or intelligence for far longer than several thousand years, so the notion that "early history was looking forward to a God figure" doesn't really make sense to me. One could feel safe in assuming (due to unearthed evidence) that humans have been conceptualizing "God" for nearly as long as Homo sapiens has existed as a species. This doesn't mean that there are good reasons to believe in a personal God who cares about individuals or groups of people, or that there are good reasons to take the holy books of the three major monotheist religions seriously, IMO. The fact that the Christian God is worshiped by hundreds of millions, and Allah is worshiped by billions doesn't really mean anything to me, it only implies that the personalities and brain chemistries of many of those people are fundamentally different and incompatible with those of many atheists, agnostics, monists, etc. 3) What's your definition of conservative? To me it just me holding to traditional values about life, marriage, etc. and common sense about human nature and economics, etc. What I meant by "conservative" in that post was an individual who would qualify as being radical, reactionary and revolutionary by today's standards. Someone who hopes for (or, in extreme cases) actively seeks the collapse or destruction and breakup of the current incarnation of the United States federal government, and the eventual emergence of many separate and sovereign territories or countries within this land mass. To be quite honest with you, I feel absolutely no meaningful allegiance to this version or state of the US, and actually care more about the future of the European countries, peoples and cultures who are, in many ways, in positions more precarious than Americans due to the actions of their own treasonous legislatures. If the whole of Europe ends up being demographically changed beyond recognition and crushed beneath the boot of Islam, then the last 18,000 to 20,000 years of evolution and history in that area of the world would have been all for nothing. No respectable "conservative" would agree with these positions, notions and views, and most of the self professed conservatives that I have known, met and spoken with, watched, read and have listened to are just center-right liberals who walk on egg shells and don't want to rock the boat. An idea as simple as gradually withdrawing the armed forces of the United States from a large fraction of their current foreign locations of operation and recasting them on the US and Mexican border completely slips the minds of most of the people I'm referring to. 4) I competely understand that everybody comes froms a very unique experience that shapes who they are and how they think today. I'm wondering out loud here, what the best way is to balance that with stating what we believe? From my experience, it's seems like most of us are on the same page and have the same beliefs about most things when we are pushed on the issues. The thing that pushes us and helps us see what we believe are questions about what we believe so we can really think through our beliefs and sort them out. Jim Who were you referring to when you typed: "most of us are on the same page and have the same beliefs about most things when we are pushed on the issues"? The sad fact of the matter is that huge numbers of people today prove time and time again to hold views that simply aren't reflected in the natural world or in the brutal and unforgiving natural order of things. If an individual or group becomes too generous and kind towards another individual or another group, that individual or group will invariably end up being taken advantage of, dominated, trampled upon and brushed aside... in the most fortunate of circumstances. Anyway, my apologies for taking up this much space, and have a pleasant evening and good night, Mr. Jim.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 27, 2014 4:10:15 GMT
OK Rob, I enjoyed reading your answers, and I will continue with the numbering questions in response, because then its easy to refer to, etc.
1) So you believe that Catholicism (to take one specific religion, even though you were referring to most relgions in general), is based on wishful thinking? And, there is no real concrete, historical, or scientific evidence for the Catholic understanding of Jesus Christ and the events in His life?
2) So the fact that most cultures in most time periods had some conception of gods, or a god, and they had religions, and were trying to figure it out, in your mind doesn't in any say that there must be one common ultimate god or truth who we are all trying to reach?
3) If we were a couple miles closer to the sun, we would all be burnt toast. If we were a few more miles away, we would be frozen. You see nothing miraculous in the fact that we are alive and here, and the order of the universe, etc.? It was all a mere accident? Even though the odds of that, would be totally astounding?
4) I've played lots of non-religious science CDs from the Great Courses series that use top professors. Not one of them knows the answer to what formed the gases, etc. that ultimately resulted in The Big Bang. What does that mean to you? Where did the very first things come from, since there was nothing for them to come from?
Also, to answer your question I was referring to everyone in the human race when I said that most have the same beliefs. Again, from my experience when we are all presented with the same questions in the same ways, where we have to give an honest answer, there usually winds up not being that much disagreement, and sometimes if there is, it would be apparent to outside observers that the will is pushing one or both parties more than honest and straightforward answers.
OK, I guess I understand what you mean on "conservative". From my experience I've seen labels get thrown around so easy, that sometimes using the label doesn't allow for an honest respect of one's views and why they have them, since they can be easily written off as having that label on them. I've seen all sides be guilty of that.
Jim
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Post by Chippa on Sept 27, 2014 6:45:04 GMT
I think the more important debate should be Mayonnaise vs salad dressing(like that Miracle Whip crap).
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Post by Horacewimp on Sept 27, 2014 8:24:43 GMT
I think the more important debate should be Mayonnaise vs salad dressing(like that Miracle Whip crap). Garlic mayonnaise on freshly cut bread is a winner, I had that in a Spanish Tapas bar recently.
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Post by 88keys on Sept 27, 2014 17:25:50 GMT
I think the more important debate should be Mayonnaise vs salad dressing(like that Miracle Whip crap). I put Miracle Whip on almost everything. It's my ketchup.
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Post by Chippa on Sept 27, 2014 17:33:40 GMT
I think the more important debate should be Mayonnaise vs salad dressing(like that Miracle Whip crap). I put Miracle Whip on almost everything. It's my ketchup. Remember how I said I put ketchup on my socks? I put Miracle Whip under my arms.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 27, 2014 17:50:17 GMT
OK Rob, I enjoyed reading your answers, and I will continue with the numbering questions in response, because then its easy to refer to, etc. 1) So you believe that Catholicism (to take one specific religion, even though you were referring to most relgions in general), is based on wishful thinking? And, there is no real concrete, historical, or scientific evidence for the Catholic understanding of Jesus Christ and the events in His life? No, just to clarify: I think the continued belief in Catholicism could be due to wishful thinking, or more specifically, due to the need of many people to have a solid sense of structure and purpose in their lives. The belief in Catholicism and other forms of Christianity could very well be just a manifestation of this need. When it comes to the Catholic church's historical understanding of Jesus, I'm in no position to know for certain whether it's accurate or not, and have always been under the impression that Catholicism, just like other sects of Christianity, has changed quite a bit throughout the centuries. ... and it seems to me that your own personal interpretation of the Catholic church's understanding of Jesus could only be accurate if you were 2,000 years old, still mentally sharp and had been present in what is now called the middle east for at least several centuries. 2) So the fact that most cultures in most time periods had some conception of gods, or a god, and they had religions, and were trying to figure it out, in your mind doesn't in any say that there must be one common ultimate god or truth who we are all trying to reach? Not necessarily. How do you reconcile your own faith in modern day Catholicism with the huge number of religions and belief systems that have emerged throughout history and the differences amongst and between those religions or general belief systems? 3) If we were a couple miles closer to the sun, we would all be burnt toast. If we were a few more miles away, we would be frozen. You see nothing miraculous in the fact that we are alive and here, and the order of the universe, etc.? It was all a mere accident? Even though the odds of that, would be totally astounding? Jrmugz, 8 out of the 9 (or 7 out of the 8) planets in our solar system are not suitable for complex life as we know it, and relatively large areas of our own planet are inhospitable to life that hasn't developed a way to warm itself. The are areas in Antarctica, for example, that are so cold they're absolutely sterile. No form of life can live in these areas except for humans who have developed the technology to do so. 4) I've played lots of non-religious science CDs from the Great Courses series that use top professors. Not one of them knows the answer to what formed the gases, etc. that ultimately resulted in The Big Bang. What does that mean to you? Where did the very first things come from, since there was nothing for them to come from? I'm not familiar with the CD set you're referring to, but it appears as though the lack of big answers from the physical sciences (at this point in history) makes you feel even more confident in your own faith. This type of thinking makes zero sense to me. Should it really come as a surprise to anyone that those who have used the scientific method to flesh out an understanding of the universe don't know where the original material came from, or whether there was any matter in existence before the Big Bang to begin with? Also, to answer your question I was referring to everyone in the human race when I said that most have the same beliefs. Again, from my experience when we are all presented with the same questions in the same ways, where we have to give an honest answer, there usually winds up not being that much disagreement, and sometimes if there is, it would be apparent to outside observers that the will is pushing one or both parties more than honest and straightforward answers. Not to nitpick, but there is no such thing as "the human race". Homo sapiens is a species and it is comprised several subspecies (races) that evolved in very different environments and circumstances from one another. How could most humans "have the same beliefs" when the varieties of brain chemistry, structure, personality and personal circumstance are so great? OK, I guess I understand what you mean on "conservative". From my experience I've seen labels get thrown around so easy, that sometimes using the label doesn't allow for an honest respect of one's views and why they have them, since they can be easily written off as having that label on them. I've seen all sides be guilty of that. Jim Yes, you're right in that many labels and terms have been stretched beyond usefulness, but I'd firmly assert that my conceptualization and use of the label "conservative" is precisely correct by definition.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 27, 2014 17:54:53 GMT
I think the more important debate should be Mayonnaise vs salad dressing(like that Miracle Whip crap). Now THIS is controversial. What kind of salad dressing are you referring to? The kinds that are clear, thin and tangy or the creamier varieties?
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 27, 2014 18:03:09 GMT
I put Miracle Whip on almost everything. It's my ketchup. Remember how I said I put ketchup on my socks? I put Miracle Whip under my arms. Ha! Yes, the forum is full of renaissance personalities. You put mayo under your arms, Helmut projectile vomits when he learns of lint getting caught in belly buttons, 88keys roars like a lioness... the list goes on.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 27, 2014 19:43:08 GMT
I wonder what Chippa and 88keys are hiding from? Two very nice guys, why would they want to go hiding from these bigger questions? I wonder what they would answer, if they weren't afraid to be honest in this discussion? Maybe they think Jeff Lynne isn't a guy whose existence warrants us to have honest deep discussions, and his art in the end merely points to a giant collage of just words and rhythms? Hmmm. To me, it always pointed to something much deeper inwardly.
I can get back to your responses later today Rob, but for right now, I'm going to 4 PM mass, to receive The Body, Soul, Blood, and Divinity of The Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Who is The Second Person of The Holy Trinity, and The Maker of the Universe, in The Holy Eucharist. Ah, to share in the divine nature, only The Catholic Church lets us do that, since it was there first, and has faithfully handed down the sacraments and teachings for 2000 years, and they have supernaturally been proteced from changing and error, etc. Like Jesus promised, the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. And with The Catholic Church relentlessly getting flack for never changing on marriage, divorce, contraception, sex, having women for priests, etc., we can sure see that its been consistent for 2000 years, and that can only be seen as supernatural when we consider human nature, and how much The Protestants have caved on one thing after another since they broke off 500 years ago. And that answers part of your first response to me, Rob, I'll get to the rest later!
To think that everything Indiana Jones could want with ark of the covenant and the holy grail, and all that wisdom in the last Indiana Jones, is gotten and SO much more, way beyond our wildest expectations, is what Catholics get in the mass, the sacraments, the teachings, and The Bible.
But anyways, uh, for those of you not going to Mass this weekend, enjoy your uh... Rolling Stone magazine bibles, I guess, maybe?
Jim
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Post by 88keys on Sept 27, 2014 19:47:22 GMT
I wonder what Chippa and 88keys are hiding from? Two very nice guys, why would they want to go hiding from these bigger questions? For one, I'm not a guy. I'm female. Secondly, I already told you that I'm an atheist, and a former Catholic. And one of the many reasons I'm an atheist and former Catholic is because a Catholic priest repeatedly raped my cousin when he was 13. How do you feel about your church hierarchy turning a blind eye to such things? Sorry mods, I had to go there.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 27, 2014 19:53:47 GMT
I wonder what Chippa and 88keys are hiding from? Two very nice guys, why would they want to go hiding from these bigger questions? For one, I'm not a guy. I'm female. Secondly, I already told you that I'm an atheist, and a former Catholic. And one of the many reasons I'm an atheist and former Catholic is because a Catholic priest repeatedly raped my cousin when he was 13. How do you feel about your church hierarchy turning a blind eye to such things? Sorry mods, I had to go there. Very sorry to hear that 88keys, and I won't call you a guy anymore. They turned a blind eye to your cousin getting raped? Jim
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