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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 5:22:05 GMT
Yes, we disagree about the practicality of widespread libertarianism, as well as on several other matters. I'm convinced that a proper libertarian sees people as individual minds that can think for theirselves (never like a mass that should be guided by a leader-thinker) and consequently would never expect to agree in everything with other person, not even with one. But let me tell you, man, despite those differences, I don't find you ideologically in the antipodes of libertarianism, even if you would hate the idea of being even close to getting catalogued under a fixed ideological category. Yeah, people are individuals, but I'd argue it's obvious that some people are more individually minded than others. I can't tell you how many times:
- I sat in history and social studies classes throughout high school and watched as the majority of the students just flat out accepted what was being fed to them by the teachers without questioning the motives of the teachers, the school system and the authors of the curriculum.
- have spoken with college attending friends and acquaintance and have come to the (understandable) conclusion that they're conditioned to the point of being "non-sovereign people" or "non-entities".
- have watched news programs or bits of news programs with co-workers, family members and other people who have no clue that they're watching what amounts to propaganda, even when it should be obvious to them.
Besides, if most of the people who ever lived had similar capacities to think for themselves, why has history played out the way it has? This may come across as question borne out of shallow understanding, but I'd argue that the world wouldn't look the way it does and history wouldn't have played out the way it has had everyone had similar capacities in this regard.As for the nurture vs. nature issue, I completely understand you idea, but I'm not so sure about it. I think I have to see more to get to a conclussion, and so preferr to adopt a cautious position. What I think is that the nurture of one person starts in the previous 3 or 4 generations, but going as far as 10,000 years, I'm not really sure. I wasn't saying that I was completely confident in the idea, but was just trying to make the point that regardless of whether something is considered nature or nurture, it is still part of the environment. It makes absolutely no sense to me that the effects of environment(s) surrounding an individual during one lifetime would override the effects (results) of the multitudes of environments their ancestors found themselves in throughout many thousands of years. I can't word it correctly this late and being as tired as I am. And yes, I have lots of non-materialist curiosities, but in the conviction that we can never reach understanding of any of them, I don't do anything about it. If someone told me "there's a computer next room and we are having a live chat with god and he is revealing us many riddles of life in this world, afterlife and so...", I'd go running to see what's all about because I'd really like to know. But those kind of things never happen, so meanwhile I don't bother about it and put my attention instead on more daily issues which I'm sure exist and are more at my reach. What about you? I get the idea that you don't do much about metaphysical worries either, but would you go running to that conference room where god is making the videocall or would you rather not be bothered when bighweeling down the hill? My views are very similar to yours in this case. When I become interested in the metaphysical / paranormal, it's in relatively short bursts or waves of time.
... and it's funny you should mention Big Wheels. When you're riding one down a steep hill, you don't get the impression that God is looking out for you and your safety.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 5:39:34 GMT
And as for democracy, that sacred concept against which no one dares to speak, I was once a supporter of it, but now it's quickly falling from my favour. Each time I see it more as a majorities' tyranny. The feeling or view is mutual. I'll quote someone whose legacy I'm not too fond of, but agree with in this regard:
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Post by Buttler on Sept 22, 2014 8:34:46 GMT
Money, religions and politics. The three things that are destroying this world/our future.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 22, 2014 11:41:27 GMT
I believe in evolution, it doesn't contradict my Catholic faith; the Catholic church never condemned it. They just teach that no matter what our understanding is of human origins, as Catholics we have to hold to that at some point there was one first man and one first woman, that our souls are an instaneous and mircaculous creation, and that sin entered the humn race. I can agree with 88keys that some of the first stories were written as myths, however they were to make a point about the real God to its Jewish audience. Jim Just to clarify: my original post wasn't some sort of criticism or attack directed towards you personally or towards your beliefs, although you've probably gathered by now that you might be the only believer or only vocal and firm believer on the board.
Hopefully you don't and won't feel too ganged up on. Hi Rob, my attitude is to come after my beliefs with both barrels and nuclear bombs, etc. I want my religious beliefs (Catholicsm) to be tried in the fire and proved true. So far, they've withstood just fine, the more people stretch to try to condemn it, the sillier they look, and the more valid Catholicism looks. The life of Jesus has more historical proof than Julius Caesar, or even George Wahington, etc.; all who have tried to disprove the resurrection have come up flat, or become believers. The main confusion these days, is everyone is stuck at Woodstock. In 1962, here in the states, the pill was legalized. The Catholic Church predicted it would cause complete chaos and they were totally right. All kinds of promiscuous sex, out of wedlock pregnancies, abortion is used as back-up birth control with no thought of the life that gets terminated, because of abortion, many women have physical injuries they can't report because they signed papers, 70% of them suffer from deep depression rates, the marriage bond has been way weakened because of birth control, a 50% divorce rate now, and now people are thinking since sex is merely about pleasure, why not gay lifestlyles, and marriage, etc. I've found the objections to Catholicism to be about as deep as when some know-it-all pot-suckers sit outside their dorm rooms passing around a joint and saying "Well you know what they say if you pass a story from one person to another, it gets totally changed by the time it gets back to the first person. Puff puff duh duh duh." And that's their big ace-in-the hole argument. Never mind that there's a written record and a living breathing Church Magisterium that has safeguarded the beliefs all these years. Protestantism is a total failure, they were way divided 10 years after they broke off from the Catholic Church, and they've dropped the ball on lots of sacred teachings since, like contraception, etc. Only The Catholic Church has the credibility because it never bent with the times and changed its core teachings. Jim
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Post by nickheynes on Sept 22, 2014 14:06:46 GMT
I'm keeping out of this one!!
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 15:34:17 GMT
Money, religions and politics. The three things that are destroying this world/our future. If you asked me, I would say that money has built it (as well as the computers, the internet and everything that's required for us to be posting on this virtual forum). What I mean, caro amico, is that I don't think money in itself is guilty for anything. Money has served as the motivator for most of the fabulous things we enjoy in this modern world. If it hadn't been for money I'm sure we would still live like cavemen. What's wrong is people. If you are going to kill, betray a friend or do something wrong for money, it's you and and your wickedness who are to blame, not money. That's my opinion. I know defending money doesn't sound romantic at all, but I have a tendency towards practicality and realism rather than romanticism.
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Post by Horacewimp on Sept 22, 2014 15:41:37 GMT
Money, religions and politics. The three things that are destroying this world/our future. If you asked me, I would say that money has built it (as well as the computers, the internet and everything that's required for us to be posting on this virtual forum). It's not virtual I've got a bank of filing cabinets in the lounge to keep all the posts in Ooops, sorry this a serious thread
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 15:46:59 GMT
If you asked me, I would say that money has built it (as well as the computers, the internet and everything that's required for us to be posting on this virtual forum). It's not virtual I've got a bank of filing cabinets in the lounge to keep all the posts in In any case, I'm sure you bought your cabinet with money (please don't tell me you are a carpenter and you made it yourself ).
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Post by jefflynnenut on Sept 22, 2014 16:33:27 GMT
I'm a christian....I believe that Jesus died for my sins, I believe he rose again on the third day, I believe that because I have faith to believe this the bible says "I have been saved by faith alone" I also believe the Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the father except through me" and because I believe this I believe that when I die I will go to my Father in heaven. I believe the world is a scary place and as a Dad of two beautiful children I pray that God protects them both. I believe God wants the best for me. I believe he is Love...if I am an ignorant fool I have lost nothing. I don't ram any of my beliefs down anyones throat. Being a Christian is loving my neighbour, looking after folk even sometimes when I don't want to! Paying the love forward! I don't generally share my belief because it can generally get messy! But I gotta stand by my man Jim who has the courage to testify to his belief! (BY THE WAY DOES ANYONE REALISE IM AN AVID ELO LUNATIC?!!!) PEACE!
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Post by Horacewimp on Sept 22, 2014 16:37:35 GMT
Hang on what are these in the back of a drawer I've forced open, ELO never before heard outakes, Secret Messages 2 disc acetate, pictures of Jeff not wearing shades folder, Beatles Forever 12", Kelly Groucutts contract, SD card to control Fred the robot, grapefruit (a little mouldy), Battle of Marston Moor (proper version), Supersonic, Solo album number two, Time live concert recordings, 100 ways to release greatest hits CDs, box of spare parts for spaceship, a third eyebrow, book titled "how to delete the film Xanadu from peoples minds".
I think Chippa must have left these, I'll take them down the rubbish tip.
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 22, 2014 17:55:29 GMT
It's not virtual I've got a bank of filing cabinets in the lounge to keep all the posts in In any case, I'm sure you bought your cabinet with money (please don't tell me you are a carpenter and you made it yourself ). I know of a Carpenter Who made the world by Himself. Jim
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Post by Chippa on Sept 22, 2014 18:22:20 GMT
Hang on what are these in the back of a drawer I've forced open, ELO never before heard outakes, Secret Messages 2 disc acetate, pictures of Jeff not wearing shades folder, Beatles Forever 12", Kelly Groucutts contract, SD card to control Fred the robot, grapefruit (a little mouldy), Battle of Marston Moor (proper version), Supersonic, Solo album number two, Time live concert recordings, 100 ways to release greatest hits CDs, box of spare parts for spaceship, a third eyebrow, book titled "how to delete the film Xanadu from peoples minds". I think Chippa must have left these, I'll take them down the rubbish tip. Did you find the pig mask worn by the roadie who played the cello? That's my prized possession, given to me by a drunk Rosie Vela one night at a bar in Texas.
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 18:51:52 GMT
I know of a Carpenter Who made the world by Himself. Jim Hahaha... You never lose the opportunity, Jim, but I must admit you were clever there. It really fit the occasion. Just trying to remember (because, to your possible surprise, I haven't always been heretic; I was bred and educated in the same faith you profess)... wasn't José (Jesus' father) the one who worked as a carpenter?
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Post by 88keys on Sept 22, 2014 19:09:21 GMT
Hang on what are these in the back of a drawer I've forced open, ELO never before heard outakes, Secret Messages 2 disc acetate, pictures of Jeff not wearing shades folder, Beatles Forever 12", Kelly Groucutts contract, SD card to control Fred the robot, grapefruit (a little mouldy), Battle of Marston Moor (proper version), Supersonic, Solo album number two, Time live concert recordings, 100 ways to release greatest hits CDs, box of spare parts for spaceship, a third eyebrow, book titled "how to delete the film Xanadu from peoples minds". I think Chippa must have left these, I'll take them down the rubbish tip. Did you find the pig mask worn by the roadie who played the cello? That's my prized possession, given to me by a drunk Rosie Vela one night at a bar in Texas. Are you sure she gave it to you, or did you rassle her for it?
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Post by Chippa on Sept 22, 2014 19:16:07 GMT
Did you find the pig mask worn by the roadie who played the cello? That's my prized possession, given to me by a drunk Rosie Vela one night at a bar in Texas. Are you sure she gave it to you, or did you rassle her for it? I'm not sure I didn't. I think the video footage may have been destroyed in the great Texas beer flood of 2009.
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