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Post by jrmugz on Sept 21, 2014 19:12:51 GMT
I'll start a thread where we can say whatever we want about politics and religion, as long as it's respectful enough and if you wouldn't mind horacewimp, since you encouraged us to divert a CD of the Week discussion to the Open Discussion forum.
I'll start, I believe that God put us here, and that God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, which is God in Three Persons, also known as The Blessed Trinity.
I think its crazy to not believe everything Jesus taught, and I think comparing him to Buddah, Mohammed, etc. is absolutely ridiculous because none of them claimed to actually be God, like Jesus did. Also Jesus didn't say He knew the truth, He said that He IS the truth, so I find it astounding when people try to say He was just another religious leader. Based on His claims to be God, He was one of three things: a total liar and con artist, a total lunatic who was completely out of His mind, or He was Lord.
Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. What do you think?
To say that He was manufactured would be a total crock, all kinds of followers from all walks of life, during and after His life all give the same accounts of His words, His actions, His rising from the dead, etc. Nobody has EVER disproved His ressurection from the dead or put it in serious doubt. If you don't believe me, then start thinking it through yourself how His ressurection from the dead could have been a fraud. You'll see its impossible, all of the guards would have been executed if they let people steal the body, etc. Lots of people have tried to disprove it, they all wind up believing in it.
Jim
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Post by tedblight on Sept 21, 2014 19:26:08 GMT
Ahhh this thread should be called "religion, politics and ways to fall out and argue!"
Bitting Tongue very hard... Been a strong atheist. I won't go on as I will offend and that's not my intentions. I predict this thread may get ugly, so I shall observe from a distance lol In the words of Ringo... Peace and Love!
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Post by Horacewimp on Sept 21, 2014 19:37:25 GMT
I don't mind a thread where people can discuss their views on these topic, we are all adults.
However should there be any name calling, bullying, swearing or otherwise the thread will be locked and no new threads on the subject allowed. Don't forget this is a music forum for fans of Jeff Lynne and ELO.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 21, 2014 20:30:14 GMT
Hello, Mr. Jim. 'Long time no see.
In tentative response to your post: I was born the son of a Methodist minister, but have always been an agnostic of sorts and simply don't have the personality or temperament to be what one would call a believer.
With that said: I also despise militant atheism, and aspects of modern "secular culture" such as humanism, political correctness, the notion that Darwinian evolution doesn't apply to humans, egalitarianism, pathological altruism, the notion that nurture is vastly more important than nature in shaping individual character, "peace and love" hippie culture (sorry, Mr. Blight), etc.
In other words, a "lone wolf" who's destined to live life enraged, without coming across many allies or like-minded people.
... was that the kind of post you were looking for in response to yours?
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Post by 88keys on Sept 21, 2014 22:03:55 GMT
The old board once had a political and religious section, and things went nuts with arguments etc. I don't see this ending well, at all.
Having said that, I've read just about every religious book known to man, and decided that it's all myths and legends. Man created "God", so he could keep the people imprisoned with fear. Actually, most Bible stories are based on recycled myths.
But if people want to believe that they are talking to some magical man in the sky in order to make their lives better, so be it. I rely on logic and science. Not magic.
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Post by wilko on Sept 21, 2014 22:13:53 GMT
Hey Jim you're either totally bonkers or a superb wind up merchant. Either way it doesn't really matter 'cos you're an ELO fan & that's far more important.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 22:31:42 GMT
Ugh! Yet another way to divide people. Can't this board just be about music?
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Post by jrmugz on Sept 22, 2014 0:53:40 GMT
Hello, Mr. Jim. 'Long time no see.
In tentative response to your post: I was born the son of a Methodist minister, but have always been an agnostic of sorts and simply don't have the personality or temperament to be what one would call a believer.
With that said: I also despise militant atheism, and aspects of modern "secular culture" such as humanism, political correctness, the notion that Darwinian evolution doesn't apply to humans, egalitarianism, pathological altruism, the notion that nurture is vastly more important than nature in shaping individual character, "peace and love" hippie culture (sorry, Mr. Blight), etc.
In other words, a "lone wolf" who's destined to live life enraged, without coming across many allies or like-minded people.
... was that the kind of post you were looking for in response to yours? I believe in evolution, it doesn't contradict my Catholic faith; the Catholic church never condemned it. They just teach that no matter what our understanding is of human origins, as Catholics we have to hold to that at some point there was one first man and one first woman, that our souls are an instaneous and mircaculous creation, and that sin entered the humn race. I can agree with 88keys that some of the first stories were written as myths, however they were to make a point about the real God to its Jewish audience. Jim
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 1:23:46 GMT
Ugh! Yet another way to divide people. Can't this board just be about music? Brax, you may very well be hoping for an overarching unity (if I can put it like that) that simply isn't to be found anywhere and has never existed amongst humans. I'm assuming you care for "diversity", don't you? This thread is an example of it, and it isn't as though it's an entirely new section of the board... it's just a thread at this stage.
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 1:40:20 GMT
I believe in evolution, it doesn't contradict my Catholic faith; the Catholic church never condemned it. They just teach that no matter what our understanding is of human origins, as Catholics we have to hold to that at some point there was one first man and one first woman, that our souls are an instaneous and mircaculous creation, and that sin entered the humn race. I can agree with 88keys that some of the first stories were written as myths, however they were to make a point about the real God to its Jewish audience. Jim Just to clarify: my original post wasn't some sort of criticism or attack directed towards you personally or towards your beliefs, although you've probably gathered by now that you might be the only believer or only vocal and firm believer on the board.
Hopefully you don't and won't feel too ganged up on.
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 2:15:46 GMT
In tentative response to your post: I was born the son of a Methodist minister, but have always been an agnostic of sorts and simply don't have the personality or temperament to be what one would call a believer.
With that said: I also despise militant atheism, and aspects of modern "secular culture" such as humanism, political correctness, the notion that Darwinian evolution doesn't apply to humans, egalitarianism, pathological altruism, the notion that nurture is vastly more important than nature in shaping individual character, "peace and love" hippie culture (sorry, Mr. Blight), etc.
In other words, a "lone wolf" who's destined to live life enraged, without coming across many allies or like-minded people.
Mr. Rob, however concerning I may find agreeing with you or finding similarities with your self-description in whichever aspect, I must confess I felt identified with many of those characteristics of yours that you mentioned (specifically, the ones I underlined), something which, in any case, I was more or less aware of thanks to conversations we have had in the past. As you see, there are some other angry lone wolves lurking around out there. Just take a look at my avatar...
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 3:51:41 GMT
Mr. Rob, however concerning I may find agreeing with you or finding similarities with your self-description in whichever aspect, I must confess I felt identified with many of those characteristics of yours that you mentioned (specifically, the ones I underlined), something which, in any case, I was more or less aware of thanks to conversations we have had in the past. As you see, there are some other angry lone wolves lurking around out there. Just take a look at my avatar... Ha! This doesn't come as a complete surprise due to those previous conversations you mentioned, although we probably disagree on matters such as the practicality of widespread libertarianism, whether or not democracy is compatible with or appropriate for all, or even a small fraction, of the peoples of the world, etc.
As for what you didn't underline : would you agree that nurture and nature are one in the same in that nature is essentially nurture throughout a genetic history (many tens of thousands of years) and nurture is nature during a single lifetime?
... and in sticking a little bit closer to the (supposed) point of the thread: do you yourself have any "metaphysical inclinations" or non-materialist curiosities?
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Post by Rob 2095 on Sept 22, 2014 4:08:14 GMT
Jrmugz,
I'd also like to confusingly add that seeing Christianity decline and dissolve bit by bit throughout the modern world (especially in Europe) doesn't give all of us a twisted sense of pleasure.
What atheists and other secularists don't seem to pick up on and consider is that although they and their efforts may have contributed greatly to this decline, they'll most likely be humiliated and crushed by the Islam their own governments (overlords) are importing.
They'll laugh about, disrespect and criticize Christianity all day long, but once Islam is mentioned, their confidence in themselves, their beliefs and their movements seems to wobble like Jello.
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 4:25:45 GMT
Ha! This doesn't come as a complete surprise due to those previous conversations you mentioned, although we probably disagree on matters such as the practicality of widespread libertarianism, whether or not democracy is compatible with or appropriate for all, or even a small fraction, of the peoples of the world, etc. As for what you didn't underline : would you agree that nurture and nature are one in the same in that nature is essentially nurture throughout a genetic history (many tens of thousands of years) and nurture is nature during a single lifetime? ... and in sticking a little bit closer to the (supposed) point of the thread: do you yourself have any "metaphysical inclinations" or non-materialist curiosities? Yes, we disagree about the practicality of widespread libertarianism, as well as on several other matters. I'm convinced that a proper libertarian sees people as individual minds that can think for theirselves (never like a mass that should be guided by a leader-thinker) and consequently would never expect to agree in everything with other person, not even with one. But let me tell you, man, despite those differences, I don't find you ideologically in the antipodes of libertarianism, even if you would hate the idea of being even close to getting catalogued under a fixed ideological category. As for the nurture vs. nature issue, I completely understand you idea, but I'm not so sure about it. I think I have to see more to get to a conclussion, and so preferr to adopt a cautious position. What I think is that the nurture of one person starts in the previous 3 or 4 generations, but going as far as 10,000 years, I'm not really sure. And yes, I have lots of non-materialist curiosities, but in the conviction that we can never reach understanding of any of them, I don't do anything about it. If someone told me "there's a computer next room and we are having a live chat with god -or many gods, or whatever suprahuman entity- and he is revealing us many riddles of life in this world, afterlife and so...", I'd go running to see what's all about because I'd really like to know. But those kind of things never happen, so meanwhile I don't bother about it and put my attention instead on more daily issues which I'm sure exist and are more at my reach. What about you? I get the idea that you don't do much about metaphysical worries either, but would you go running to that conference room where god is making the videocall or would you rather not be bothered when bighweeling down the hill?
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Post by Helmut83 on Sept 22, 2014 4:44:53 GMT
And as for democracy, that sacred concept against which no one dares to speak, I was once a supporter of it, but now it's quickly falling from my favour. Each time I see it more as a majorities' tyranny.
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