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Post by Timeblue on Jan 7, 2017 22:02:54 GMT
Don't know if this has been put on here before but this could have been a trial run for part2. Wonder what Jeff thought of it at the time since Kelly and Jeff were still in ELO. Interesting to hear the lyrics and pick up on the ELOisms such as 'out of the blue' 'starlight' 'all over the world'
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Post by Platypus on Jan 8, 2017 5:54:42 GMT
I enjoy Kelly's solo album (but not the sound quality), and it's probably not surprising that what was substantially ELO without Jeff on lead vocals/guitar, sounds so much like ELO. It would be nice to think that the writing was something of a tribute, which could be supported by the presence of so many ELO names in the studio, although Kelly did sue Jeff the following year.
The slightly later release with Kelly & Mik as Player still has Louis' ELO sound, but carries more of an Irish Beachboys vibe at times, it seems to me! Only video I found of it, sorry:
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Post by ShardEnder on Jan 19, 2017 4:18:19 GMT
Jeff tried warning Kelly against pursuing a sound he once described as resembling Electric Light Orchestra with heavy emphasis on the "lite" part, and the bassist's determination to continue with his solo album led to quite a few disagreements...
First of all, Jeff had only two weeks to record Time in Munich with the core group because of Kelly being booked to start work on his own project, and there was further upset when Louis Clark suddenly became available to work on that album. Due to Lou having commitments relating to the original Hooked On Classics, Time was instead orchestrated by Rainer Pietsch at the suggestion of Reinhold Mack.
Upon hearing rough mixes of Kelly's album, Jeff felt betrayed that Bev, Lou, Mik and even his right hand man, Richard, had betrayed him by diluting the hard work they'd achieved together under the actual ELO name. Things really escalated when Jeff called a meeting in the middle of the European leg of the subsequent Time Tour where he laid down a few rules for what he considered his increasingly dissenting colleagues.
By this point, relative newcomer Dave Morgan had also joined Kelly's cause, making a high profile appearance as a member of his backing group on a German televised performance of several tracks from the album when they were supposed to be promoting Time. Furious, Jeff insisted they all cease any more solo-related activity until after the Time Tour was over, but Kelly's manager, Peter Kuys, had already signed a deal to have his client's album remixed in the hope it could yet break the US market.
For those unaware, Kelly immediately started work on a follow-up, making use of remaining studio time left from the sessions for his first album, paid in advance due to everyone involved anticipating huge sales. Once they realised it was a critical and commercial flop, Kelly's label desperately tried to help shift a few extra units, leading to him securing a high profile slot on American Bandstand the following year.
I've even been informed that Jeff demanded the video for Am I A Dreamer be dropped from rotation on MTV because he considered it a threat to his own plans with ELO - especially as it featured so many key figures. The final bombshell Jeff dropped in this confrontation, which took place after they'd recorded several new songs on a flying visit to Wisseloord Studios just days before they played in nearby Rotterdam, was that the next ELO album was something he'd planned to be their last, with no tour in support of this.
To cut a long story short, the rest of ELO realised their services would soon no longer be required. With a fourth child on the way, studio bills outstanding plus hopes to still release his second album, Kelly turned to his manager, who foolishly suggested challenging Jet Records then eventually Jeff Lynne himself for 25% of ELO's profits from his joining in late 1974 to the end of 1983. Of course, we know how that turned out.
As for Bev, sources differ on what exactly happened, with some claiming he left (and not for the first time, it seems) or was told to spend a few weeks cooling off, his absence officially explained as being the result of him returning to the UK for surgery. The truth is that Bev did indeed suffer from kidney stones, and his fluctuating weight around this period is all the proof you'd ever need. However, it's uncanny how well rehearsed Pete King was for a supposedly last minute replacement, while Bev was clearly in good enough shape to join Black Sabbath for a while, only returning to ELO because he contractually had to be on what became Secret Messages, being an equal shareholder in the group.
Just like Kelly, Bev was still present in the subsequent music videos and promotional images because Jeff wanted to retain some degree of unity to fans, with friendships only being damaged for good in the wake of the settlement made out of court a few months later. Rewinding a little, I've also learned that Dave only wasn't offered a lasting job in ELO because Jeff was looking to wind the band down, plus there were concerns he'd repeat what Kelly previously did, since the Earthrise project was already underway by then.
Dave recalls Jeff inviting him into the sessions for Secret Messages to teach him production skills he could utilise on Earthrise, and in return he could perhaps share information about something that I'm not yet at liberty to disclose until my publisher's lawyers have finished doing some clearance work behind the scenes as I continue researching my book on this chapter in ELO's history. I'm sorry for not being able to reveal any more, though I remain confident such necessary silence won't be permanent.
What I will risk sharing for now is that Mik didn't have anything to do with any of the main batch of sessions for Secret Messages, and he was very lucky to have a place in ELO's handful of 1986 shows, as by then he'd spoken with the exiled Kelly about working on further music together, which led to Am I A Dreamer being remixed and reissued the following year under the short-lived Player name, changed to OrKestra after a dormant '70s group with the earlier name suddenly became active once again.
Oh, and Bev did more percussion overdubs on Secret Messages than he did playing a full kit. Much of that album was created over several months by Jeff, Richard and Dave on considerable enough background vocals that his contributions to Endless Lies are why that song had to be drastically remixed for Balance Of Power, as I've mentioned before. As for Bev, he mostly sat around the studio bored waiting for Jeff to wipe another song, beginning from scratch or coming up with an idea for rototom and cymbal parts to accompany Dave's modified Oberheim DMX drum machine, affectionately called Dennis, also heard on several Earthrise tracks.
Did I just give you all a satisfactory teaser of my project, and will this help ease those of you worried I'm not giving regular progress updates? In contrast to my lengthy gaps online, these kinds of post confirm just how many exclusives or little-known facts I've been able to compile, and I still have the unenviable task ahead of me to put all the rough notes into chronological order. Then, I'll need to write everything in such a way the few blanks are sufficiently bridged to a similar level.
Whatever you do, just don't ask me for a definitive release date, as I'm busy putting everything together while being very careful not to draw attention from the legal representatives of certain people. Finding a balance where everyone is equally represented to the best of my ability has proved the greatest personal challenge by far, believe me!
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Post by Timeblue on Jan 19, 2017 9:20:07 GMT
Thanks for that Shardender,fascinating stuff and although we know the eventual outcome,rather sad.....
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Post by Timeblue on Jan 19, 2017 9:22:17 GMT
Interesting too that Richard got involved when nearly everyone assumed that he was Jeff's loyal right hand man...
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Post by ash2 on Jan 19, 2017 18:04:40 GMT
So when is it out Re helping Kelly , I suppose they were just helping there mate with his solo album , not really knowing how it would end up sounding...the fact that it sounded like ELO....well Jeff's reaction says it all , and who could blame him.
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Post by f4monty on Jan 21, 2017 9:32:48 GMT
Jeff is a guy who wants everything. He needs the total commitment of the people who work for him but seems very reluctant to give them the opportunity to really show and exploit their creativity. It's like he's scared that someone is going to steal his thunder. I would absolutely hate working for him!
I can see why he'd want to protect the product but overall his behaviour strikes me as a bit childish.
ELO - as with organisations generally - was at its best when it was the sum of its parts rather than a dictatorship. To me, Jeff's music has never been as good as a solo (or almost solo) artist.
Anyway, I love the fact that Shardender continues to take us behind the scenes. Someone needs to knock the PR nonsense down to size!
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Post by pelo on Jan 21, 2017 18:07:24 GMT
Things aren't black and white; I think it would be unfair to present Jeff Lynne as a petty tyrant, since most people who know him describe Jeff as rather shy and very generous. Obviously there was quite a bit of tension in the early Eighties, plus Jeff was going through a difficult time in his life. Yes, Jeff was quoted at the time as saying that ELO was to some degree a one-man-band, and there is no doubt that it had been mainly his project from the second album onwards (and that he wanted it to be his project). So I can understand why he didn't like Kelly's ELo-like approach for his solo album or ELO Pt II's albums. I've interviewed engineers such as Dick Plant, Richard Goldblatt, Colin Owen and Mack, and they all agreed that ELO in the studio had never been a band effort (with the exception of ELO2 and OTTD, maybe)
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Post by ShardEnder on Jan 22, 2017 18:06:16 GMT
From what I can tell, even the earliest ELO albums were mostly the work of Jeff and Roy, with the other musicians contributing only a few ideas. By the Discovery sessions, Kelly barely played any bass in the studio, and my understanding is that he'd offered songs for Jeff's approval, instead stockpiling enough material for two solo efforts by the time he properly stated work on the first in 1981. As for Bev, his parts were made to become so basic that it was almost inevitable he'd be mostly replaced with loops and then drum machines, only being convinced to return (on at least three occasions I know of) because he was still a 50% shareholder.
Richard's case is more interesting, since he clearly had the most input of the other members. I was surprised to learn than Jeff was originally going to record his tracks for the Xanadu project with only Richard helping out with the keyboard side of things, but was urged to bring in the rest of ELO for marketing reasons. Also, it should be noted that Jeff retaliated by insisting on his own terms, demanding that the film's producers use everything he offered them in the final cut or lose him entirely. With no sequence for Don't Go Away in the can, Don Bluth was approached to animate the segment associated with that particular song.
Back to ELO's own work again, considerable portions of Time, Secret Messages and Balance Of Power were recorded with just Richard accompanying Jeff, which is a format that extended into the tracks submitted for Electric Dreams - those were released under Lynne's own name due to a contractual issue that prevented "ELO" from issuing material on labels outside those the band had signed with, the resulting soundtrack album plus its singles originally issued through Virgin, yet mentioning Epic for licensing reasons. As we know all too well, Jeff wasn't quite yet able to fully leave ELO in the past by that point.
Apart from Jet requiring one further album from ELO, they were under obligation to promote this with a set number of live shows and television appearances. Jeff obviously knew what the bare minimum of this activity was, since he was able to cancel at least one German concert in 1986 and withdraw from a planned longer Europe-wide tour opening for Rod Stewart, though I've also been told he might have used comments the headline act made in the British press as an excuse to prematurely end his own supporting slot. With this, it was unlikely Jeff would then return to ELO just two years later, which at least explains his statement officially confirming the end of ELO.
As for events being neither black or white, my intention isn't to portray anyone in a particular way. The truth lies somewhere between Jeff always wanting ELO to be a glorified studio project and his colleagues doing their best to have some input, which is probably why the majority who preferred being able to see fans continued on as Part II. By contrast, Jeff became more of a producer to his new tight circle of friends, while Richard spent the next few years after ELO carrying on with Dave Morgan, who is one of the rare instances of someone evidently happy to be both a studio and on-stage performer.
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Post by tightrope on Jan 22, 2017 22:57:26 GMT
Jeff is a guy who wants everything. He needs the total commitment of the people who work for him but seems very reluctant to give them the opportunity to really show and exploit their creativity. It's like he's scared that someone is going to steal his thunder. I would absolutely hate working for him! I can see why he'd want to protect the product but overall his behaviour strikes me as a bit childish. ELO - as with organisations generally - was at its best when it was the sum of its parts rather than a dictatorship. To me, Jeff's music has never been as good as a solo (or almost solo) artist. Anyway, I love the fact that Shardender continues to take us behind the scenes. Someone needs to knock the PR nonsense down to size! There is nothing childish about wanting to protect the ELO brand. As for sounding like ELO, it did, if it had a bad case of the flu.
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ajv
Junior Member
Posts: 31
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Post by ajv on Feb 23, 2017 16:50:57 GMT
Here's an article from Billboard from November 1983, relevant to this thread. I found it while searching an interesting website called American Radio History, where you can search Billboard magazines by topic and year. ------------------------------------------------------------------- BILLBOARD: Nov. 12, 1983 (page 62) ELO Breakup Near; ‘Differences’ Cited LONDON It seems certain that the Electric Light Orchestra is about to blow a fuse and split. "Irreconcilable differences" are spoken of here about the band, which records for CBS-distributed Jet Records. The disputes, which apparently came to a head during the recording of the "Secret Messages" album, are compounded by upcoming legal action by bass player Kelly Groucutt. According to newspapers in Europe, Groucutt says he's taking action to claim 25% of the band's gross profits since 1974. He has alleged he's been paid a "hired hand" fee of around $20,000 a year during the period when the band sold more than 10 million albums worldwide. A statement from his company, Kagee Productions Ltd., says: "Groucutt claims to have had no proper or adequate information or accounting of his substantial and significant participation and contribution to the ELO since 1974, nor to have received proper or adequate remuneration for his appearances and performances with and services rendered to the band." Bill Stonebridge, speaking for Kagee, says: "We know the world tours carried out successfully by the band, and the many hit records made, and Groucutt participated fully in everything. The earnings from these activities aggregate to a very large sum." For legal reasons, Groucutt has taken action against Jeff Lynne, songwriting front man of the band, and against Bev Bevan, now drumming with Black Sabbath. Groucutt has, however, recorded a solo album for release early in 1984, on which he was assisted by Bevan. Its title: "Lights Out." A further problem for the ELO's future is that Lynne has made it known he's reluctant to tour with the band. ------------------------------------------------------ Link to article: www.americanradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Archive-Billboard-IDX/IDX/80s/1983/BB-1983-11-12-OCR-Page-0060.pdf#search=%22elo%20split%22
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Post by elophile on Feb 23, 2017 17:12:49 GMT
According to newspapers in Europe, Groucutt says he's taking action to claim 25% of the band's gross profits since 1974. He has alleged he's been paid a "hired hand" fee of around $20,000 a year during the period when the band sold more than 10 million albums worldwide. Poor Kelly - $20,000 a year - even adjusted for inflation it's not nearly enough for his contribution.
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Post by unomusette on Feb 23, 2017 22:43:45 GMT
It doesn't seem enough, I wonder if it was down to Don Arden or Jeff, or a combination of both? Kelly obviously held Jeff and Bev responsible. On the other hand 25% of the band's profits also seems a bit too much to have claimed. I've forgotten now if it ever reached court or how it turned out. What a rubbish fan I am
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Post by livinthing on Feb 24, 2017 8:22:22 GMT
It doesn't seem enough, I wonder if it was down to Don Arden or Jeff, or a combination of both? Kelly obviously held Jeff and Bev responsible. On the other hand 25% of the band's profits also seems a bit too much to have claimed. I've forgotten now if it ever reached court or how it turned out. AWhat a rubbish fan I am No you are not!
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Post by ShardEnder on Feb 24, 2017 12:41:38 GMT
First of all, thank you so very, VERY much for unearthing that article. Of course, by the date it was published, Kelly's lawsuit had already been settled out of court the previous month, though it should be noted that he originally named only Don and David Arden - his two shareholding colleagues were only brought into the case once the figures within Jet Records made it clear they wouldn't be paying anything out. Were it not for Kelly going after Jeff in particular, I'm in little doubt he'd still have remained with ELO. After years of playing with a stable core line-up for the last nine years, I've been reliably informed that Jeff didn't want to see anyone further leave ELO, and he even kept the door open for those two music video appearances despite the fact Kelly had already been frozen out of the main batch of sessions for Secret Messages that were held at Wisseloord Studios between August 1982 and February 1983, suggesting the legal action was initiated at some point beyond the group's earlier "flying visit" in February '82 between shows on the European leg of the Time Tour...
Indeed, without revealing any more than I already have, it was following the very productive initial trip to Hilversum (where all four songs featuring Kelly were recorded in just two days!) that Jeff told the rest of his band their next album would be its last, with no plans for a tour in support of this. In other words, Jeff gave the others notice of his plan to make what became Secret Messages their final statement, and a source present during the subsequent heated exchange revealed to me that Bev threatened to accept an offer from Black Sabbath to permanently take over the role of original drummer Bill Ward, which he'd previously turned down in early 1981 because Jeff reminded him that he was still a 50% owner in the ELO name, with all the financial benefits this would continue to provide. Around the same period, you may recall Bev also briefly reuniting with several of his co-founders in The Move for what proved to be a one-off live show, though it was quickly decided that Roy's heart wasn't entirely in this, not to mention others considered Ace Kefford something of a liability due to his worsening health.
Bev obviously had a desire to join Tony Iommi as part of Black Sabbath long before this finally happened, while their friendship thankfully managed to endure the cause of their eventual professional split, which happened just days into their 1987 tour because of the former ELO drummer objecting to bookings in Sun City. As someone who'd helped established the Heart Beat charity just two years previously and likely seen what happened to Queen as a result of their playing at the same controversial location a year before that, it's claimed Bev only stayed with Black Sabbath because he desperately hoped they'd reconsider, but they ultimately didn't, simply recruiting a string of short-lived replacements to ensure their remaining dates could be met. Once he'd taken a short break to recover from the blow of losing such a potentially lucrative job, Bev reached out to Jeff in the hope they could work on a new ELO album and tour, but with no pressure from record labels anymore, he found himself alone in such a desire, which is how the negotiations for Part II began.
Returning to the subject of Kelly's departure from ELO once again, Jeff only sealed the proverbial door for good once his own name was brought up in court, though for once it wasn't just the contested money that led to this decision being made. While I'm not currently at liberty to discuss this particular matter until my publisher's lawyers have completed approving the rough notes I've already submitted, what came up in my research is that Kelly threatened to sell his story to a British tabloid newspaper as a last resort, demanding Jeff to share private demo recordings he'd made for Out Of The Blue so a judge might be in a better position to confirm what Kelly's contributions really were to the material on that album, the specific mention of a large portion of one hit single in particular enough to bring a quick resolution that also included a gagging order on both parties. As a direct result of Kelly's lawsuit, Jeff told Dave Morgan that he wouldn't be announced as ELO's newest official member, even though he knew by then at least one further album plus a number of live appearances were contractually necessary before he could disband the group for good.
I've never seen Kelly's unreleased second solo album referred to by any name until now, and if Lights Out wasn't simply a journalist's unverified remark, that would have been a real sucker punch in Jeff's direction. I'd genuinely like to believe that Kelly was above such low blows, though at the same time I wouldn't blame him. Jeff put up every legal roadblock you can think of to stop Kelly from trading on the ELO name, which caused OrKestra quite a few problems and even prevented his former colleague from technically being a full member of Part II all the way up to 1994, when he was finally able to write for the group. For a while, he could only perform with Part II under the condition it was as a special guest from OrKestra who'd be paid and promoted in such a way to ensure nobody thought he was directly profiting from his past. As someone supposedly in the same boat as others who'd tried getting a larger cut from their employer, Kelly's name generated a lot more hostility in the long term than Wilf Gibson, for example, who quickly earned himself the nickname of VAT due to his own financial demands. Then again, it's probably because a bassist and occasional lead singer has a higher profile than a string player, not to mention Kelly went on to be such a major draw with Part II, helping keep the lights on for a period when Jeff was more busy collaborating with mostly his new circle of friends.
P.S. Jeff obviously received the most financial reward from ELO, and I can imagine Bev also getting enough to live comfortably for a while from selling his cut in 1999, plus we know how much Kelly left with. However, the real question is why Richard Tandy never complained or spoke of ever turning his back on Jeff. I've learned that much of Richard's keyboard rig in the late '70s came from sponsorship deals, but he was expected to buy his own synthesisers later on, so clearly he wasn't doing too badly, as proved by the collection of vintage gear he'd later auction off for charity, including several large identifiable pieces from his time with ELO.
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