Chris Groucutt, in his own words from our Facebook chat...
Aug 14, 2018 3:08:20 GMT
Horacewimp, queenofthehours, and 5 more like this
Post by trekkielo on Aug 14, 2018 3:08:20 GMT
that began in December 2015!
"Firstly my dad said Jeff doesn't need any help writing ELO songs. Which is true.. But that doesn't mean he didn't have any help. He doesn't need help writing at all.. But he has consistently collaborated with many other writers over the years and so it was in the studio - he just never credited anybody. Don't get me wrong.. The vast vast majority of the melody and lyrics were Jeff. But he had lots of input.. The core band were there most of the time and all hands were on deck.. My dad was constantly at the studio in Germany when they recorded.. He wasn't making the tea. In fact I actually have ELO master tapes here at the house... That he took away to listen and work on.. He was involved not in every step.. but in many of the steps for a lot of the material... and certainly was a significant contributor to the creation of those records.. The rest of the material involved massive contributions to the recordings... And yes that does mean musical creation and in many many cases involved songwriting. I myself witnessed the process more than once at Jeff's house/studio. I remember distinctly a session were they were all playing at his house and throwing ideas in. Including my dad playing guitar.. And then Jeff disappearing to aside rent room to write the lyrics and melody.. That process is entirely and legally classed as songwriting because it's entirely impossible to judge where the creation of said lyrics/melody comes from.. Also there is one particular song that always stuck with my old man. That he maintains and swore that it came from an idea he was playing around with on guitar and Jeff loved it and took it and developed a whole song from. And the guitar part remained in its entirety apparently. Which meant in no uncertain terms that he instigated and co-wrote the whole song. Regardless of the fact that he wrote not a single word of that song or melody.. But.... It's impossible to to quote this online, because it's in no way possible to back it up with any evidence. I remember him distinctly telling me about the event, but not the actual song for definite... My recollection is that it's Strange Magic... The guitar intro at the start... But don't quote me on it. I also recollect that he put that guitar part in this song - but in reverse.. to make a point..
Well my Dad did try. Fans suggest that it was settled out of court because he didn't have a case. Actually the opposite happened. Kelly spent a couple of years going after him... And eventually when the case clearly showed merit.. Jeff offered a settlement. Which was ridiculously low.. But the experience all but destroyed my dad. He was in a massive depression... Absolutely stone broke.. And literally had to stop. Lack of money. It depends on your understanding of how bad he was. I remember him spending weeks at a time on the living room sofa.. Not once getting up except for toilet. It destroyed him. About 2 years of serious depression... And you'll take anything. Well it was a combination of things. Lack of money being the major thing. He couldn't go into a shop without being recognized. But had no money by 85-86. His marriage had fallen apart with my mother.. About to lose house. His album was a flop obviously that was his last money. That's what serious depression will do. The offer was 300k plus ongoing promotion and support. Which meant that he could save the house' give him some money in his pocket to promote his second album. Plus... My dad's manager was an idiot... But ultimately he just took it to get it over with. As it happened he thought the 300 k was enough to get him out of the hole.
Well this will will blow your mind Rick. My old man was on 40+ million records. How much do you think made for 10 years and 40 million records? Well let's say an average album price in UK for mid 70's onward was £3.50. About half of that goes to the creators. So there's £1.75 to split. If even half of that went to Jeff for being the main man the rest of the band would have had maybe 10 p per copy each. I know of some session players who have had that from a record. That would have been a minimum of £4 million for records alone. Then there's the tours obviously.. In actuality. There was more, with single sales as well.. But lets just say that.. But in reality for 10 years work. It came to less than £400 k. £40 k per year. For being in one of the most successful bands of the 70's. But to be fair.. There was an occasion in the mid 70's when ELO were huge. That Jeff's car broke down near here. And he didn't have enough money to fix it or have it towed. And he had to phone Don for help. And complained.. How come he's selling all these records and can't afford a car. And Don said don't worry - I'll get you a car. And he did. Rather than him having any money... So they were all in the same boat to some degree... Then when Jeff finally got control of his publishing and recording royalties he had promised that the band would be fairly split. For the recordings. And then he didn't. And that was 'the meal'. And that was the beginning of the end. Because Jeff had a return of £11 mil and then had ongoing massive royalties coming to him. And he didn't do the right thing.. Either what he should have done.. Or what he actually promised.
Well my mother who was involved with it all swears it was the influence of Sandy that screwed it all up. Jeff's girlfriend once she realized how much money was at stake, she apparently was the one who stopped Jeff sharing it. But it makes no difference really.. He should have split it. My dad made far much more money from ELO Pt 2. And yet... Even though I know what he did, and how badly he treated the people who helped him get there.. I still can't dispute the beauty of his music. And actually my dad, till the day he died always said he wouldn't never deny his talent or the wonder of his songs. Lord knows how he managed to survive that kind of betrayal.
But I will say this... Jeff Lynne has presided over one of the greatest rock and roll scandals of the 70's and has pretty much got away with it... Don Arden is largely part of the current problem, and why Jeff is like he is.. Don ripped Jeff and the band off for untold millions in the 70's and when Jeff finally started receive what was due to him, he didn't share what was due to others. Resulting in an event known as 'the meal' in our house. When Jeff successfully sued Don Arden and received a huge payout for lost royalties and of which around 60% was promised to the band that wasn't Jeff/Bev/Richard equaling at least a million each... But ended up being announced at the meal as £5k and that was the beginning of the end.. And Jeff still worked with Don after that as well. Such is the music business. I guess very late 70's. Indeed, showbiz is very dirty to the bone. But so are places where the little guys who make this world go around work, like me. I've just texted somebody the date of the meal... May be a while to get the answer. It was definitely post-OOTB. Mik was there I've just been told... So it's likely that Hugh and Mel were. My answer has just come back between 77 and 80. Doesn't narrow it down too much. But def post OOTB.. And maybe post Discovery. Anyway none of this can be stated online... Because it will gin back and forth for eons with no resolution. The simple matter of the fact is that it's easy to see that ELO as it is now bears little resemblance to the ELO of the 70's. That's not to say it's better or worse, it's a very different thing. But its obvious to anybody with half a brain that Jeff did not do any of those big things back in the day by himself.. Either in creation or composition... He used people intensely in the creation process. It's so utterly ridiculous to suggest otherwise...
Well actually fans have taken anecdotal evidence about a couple of songs that have been widely reported that Jeff did it all... One is Don't Bring Me Down.. Which Mack told the story of its creation in the studio overnight... Well that comes from one article with Mack I believe.. That Jeff did it on occasion.. And is largely true. Another is 'The Lights Go Down' which is largely the result of Jeff's demo that survived almost intact.. There were likely a couple of others... Which is fine.. But fans extrapolated from that the rest of the vast output of ELO was therefore the same story which obviously they were not.. The reasons those stories exist is because they were outliers, an exception to the rule, and story worthy. Fans make that sound like he did it all the time.. Which is daft. Jeff did play some keys and piano yes.. But frankly he isn't that good.. Richard is an exceptional keyboard player, and Jeff is bashout chords player. It's pretty evident from his later work that he is a basic piano player at best. And it's well known that Mel Gale played the piano on Wild West Hero. Because he was better than all of them. Mel Gale was a wizard pianist. You know the honky-tonk piano at start of Wild West Hero.. That's Mel. If you look at live videos of Wild West Hero and Roll Over Beethoven you'll see Mel switch to piano in some shots. Tandy was exceptional though.. And there is zero chance that Jeff could develop those lines. He was able to recreate them years later using the technology we have now.. Cause you can play it in step by step on a sequencer.. But back in the day.. No way. Well it's significant that the strengths that the players had are absolutely evident when they were involved.. It's abundantly clear when Louis was involved. Of which Jeff has tried to take credit for before.. And there is absolutely no way he composed those sections. When you hear other things that Louis has composed (not just orchestrated) it's perfectly clear who wrote that side of things. That was all Louis. Jeff has actually been on record saying that he and Richard arranged it all. Which is bull. He's like this because ELO Pt 2 got up his nose. And since then has been consistently blanking the former members and their contributions. Well if that band was in existence now it would be a different affair.
The famous example is Young at Heart by The Bluebells. At the start of this song there's a violin riff. That the session player (who wasn't a member of the band at all... unlike Kaminski in ELO) was asked to come up with something for the start. And he just improvised that. Years later it was deemed that the violin was so significantly recognizable as a part of that song that he was awarded songwriting credit. Now there is absolutely no way that Mik was dictated to regarding those violin parts on tracks like Livin' Thing. He came up with those, exactly like I've seen him do dozens of times on my dads stuff and ELO Pt 2. And nowadays you would have a songwriting credit. But back then nobody had any education.. The person who got the money was the person who put the claim in.. Now that is actual 'songwriting' which means you would collect publishing royalties which are huge regardless of songwriting, anybody - and that means ANYBODY - who contributed to the recording of a record. i.e. You play an instrument on a track. Really should be on a cut of the actual physical sales of the said record. But no ELO member did. All the contemporary bands of the time had splits... But none of them did.. Even Jeff didn't get any for years. Until they went after Don... Who had pocketed 10's of millions. It would never happen now.. And was rare then... So basically... They didn't receive recording royalties.. When they should have without question.. And they didn't receive publishing royalties.. Which is a different argument as to what constitutes the songwriting. And my argument is that it's clear that many people had significant contributions to the actual writing of those songs... That it should also be an issue..
Never once would anyone have dictacted to Kelly what to play.. It's a ridiculous assumption. Jeff would strum chords.. And Kelly would create everything from there.. Jeff would say what he liked.. But never once did he tell him what notes to play.. That is well known. To suggest otherwise is absurd.. Otherwise you just wouldn't have any musicians there. He has ridden long and far on the wave of those albums which he categorically did not create single handed.
Funny thing with Zoom... I didn't really like it when it came out... Me and dad listened to it, and we both were a bit underwhelmed by it.. Short Pop songs with no real large scale vision... But over the years I've really warmed to it... And actually I rate it very highly now... I just had to listen to it with different expectations.
Well yeah.. I have never had a problem with him using the name. I actually think the moniker Jeff Lynne's ELO is a mark of respect to the original lineups. Makes a distinction that it's something new. And things change. ELO now is a different thing. And that's fine. It is a bit daft I agree to call the album ELO in any shape when there is little of the original 'idea' of what ELO was supposed to be.. But meh.. it doesn't fuss me that much. Well I think the impetus was really about the Hyde Park show last year.. And because that happened, there was a new brand born, and it would be sensible to start using it. I don't think he had any intention of recording an album under the name. All indications are that he was going to do a Jeff Lynne album. Then scrapped that due to the massive response to the gig. So it does make sense kinda. What would have been better entirely is if he had written those songs.. and then got Mike Stevens involved.. and Donovan and a Richard Tandy and actually made it a new ELO. Give it a year or two and it would've been a proper band. I mean he could've just rerecorded them all.. Cause apparently that's what he always did.
Well considering the chap playing with them now still ****s up the bass parts, I'm pretty sure they're all Kelly's bits too.. And you can't mistake Mik's violining.. He could outplay all the orchestral players you could hire in his hey day. It's just Jeff as usual.. His modus operandi has always been that it's not good enough for him to win.. Everyone else has to lose. Pity really.. Cause he comes across in interviews as a humble guy with no ego... But those that know him.. Know that's a complete act. He actually isn't a bad guy if you're on side with him... But he is ruthless as well.
And I've made it clear to everyone.. I'll be friends with anyone regardless of their opinions - with one exception.. If anybody says 'Jeff is ELO' or agrees with somebody saying - or likes a statement that says it.. then they're gone.."
"Firstly my dad said Jeff doesn't need any help writing ELO songs. Which is true.. But that doesn't mean he didn't have any help. He doesn't need help writing at all.. But he has consistently collaborated with many other writers over the years and so it was in the studio - he just never credited anybody. Don't get me wrong.. The vast vast majority of the melody and lyrics were Jeff. But he had lots of input.. The core band were there most of the time and all hands were on deck.. My dad was constantly at the studio in Germany when they recorded.. He wasn't making the tea. In fact I actually have ELO master tapes here at the house... That he took away to listen and work on.. He was involved not in every step.. but in many of the steps for a lot of the material... and certainly was a significant contributor to the creation of those records.. The rest of the material involved massive contributions to the recordings... And yes that does mean musical creation and in many many cases involved songwriting. I myself witnessed the process more than once at Jeff's house/studio. I remember distinctly a session were they were all playing at his house and throwing ideas in. Including my dad playing guitar.. And then Jeff disappearing to aside rent room to write the lyrics and melody.. That process is entirely and legally classed as songwriting because it's entirely impossible to judge where the creation of said lyrics/melody comes from.. Also there is one particular song that always stuck with my old man. That he maintains and swore that it came from an idea he was playing around with on guitar and Jeff loved it and took it and developed a whole song from. And the guitar part remained in its entirety apparently. Which meant in no uncertain terms that he instigated and co-wrote the whole song. Regardless of the fact that he wrote not a single word of that song or melody.. But.... It's impossible to to quote this online, because it's in no way possible to back it up with any evidence. I remember him distinctly telling me about the event, but not the actual song for definite... My recollection is that it's Strange Magic... The guitar intro at the start... But don't quote me on it. I also recollect that he put that guitar part in this song - but in reverse.. to make a point..
Well my Dad did try. Fans suggest that it was settled out of court because he didn't have a case. Actually the opposite happened. Kelly spent a couple of years going after him... And eventually when the case clearly showed merit.. Jeff offered a settlement. Which was ridiculously low.. But the experience all but destroyed my dad. He was in a massive depression... Absolutely stone broke.. And literally had to stop. Lack of money. It depends on your understanding of how bad he was. I remember him spending weeks at a time on the living room sofa.. Not once getting up except for toilet. It destroyed him. About 2 years of serious depression... And you'll take anything. Well it was a combination of things. Lack of money being the major thing. He couldn't go into a shop without being recognized. But had no money by 85-86. His marriage had fallen apart with my mother.. About to lose house. His album was a flop obviously that was his last money. That's what serious depression will do. The offer was 300k plus ongoing promotion and support. Which meant that he could save the house' give him some money in his pocket to promote his second album. Plus... My dad's manager was an idiot... But ultimately he just took it to get it over with. As it happened he thought the 300 k was enough to get him out of the hole.
Well this will will blow your mind Rick. My old man was on 40+ million records. How much do you think made for 10 years and 40 million records? Well let's say an average album price in UK for mid 70's onward was £3.50. About half of that goes to the creators. So there's £1.75 to split. If even half of that went to Jeff for being the main man the rest of the band would have had maybe 10 p per copy each. I know of some session players who have had that from a record. That would have been a minimum of £4 million for records alone. Then there's the tours obviously.. In actuality. There was more, with single sales as well.. But lets just say that.. But in reality for 10 years work. It came to less than £400 k. £40 k per year. For being in one of the most successful bands of the 70's. But to be fair.. There was an occasion in the mid 70's when ELO were huge. That Jeff's car broke down near here. And he didn't have enough money to fix it or have it towed. And he had to phone Don for help. And complained.. How come he's selling all these records and can't afford a car. And Don said don't worry - I'll get you a car. And he did. Rather than him having any money... So they were all in the same boat to some degree... Then when Jeff finally got control of his publishing and recording royalties he had promised that the band would be fairly split. For the recordings. And then he didn't. And that was 'the meal'. And that was the beginning of the end. Because Jeff had a return of £11 mil and then had ongoing massive royalties coming to him. And he didn't do the right thing.. Either what he should have done.. Or what he actually promised.
Well my mother who was involved with it all swears it was the influence of Sandy that screwed it all up. Jeff's girlfriend once she realized how much money was at stake, she apparently was the one who stopped Jeff sharing it. But it makes no difference really.. He should have split it. My dad made far much more money from ELO Pt 2. And yet... Even though I know what he did, and how badly he treated the people who helped him get there.. I still can't dispute the beauty of his music. And actually my dad, till the day he died always said he wouldn't never deny his talent or the wonder of his songs. Lord knows how he managed to survive that kind of betrayal.
But I will say this... Jeff Lynne has presided over one of the greatest rock and roll scandals of the 70's and has pretty much got away with it... Don Arden is largely part of the current problem, and why Jeff is like he is.. Don ripped Jeff and the band off for untold millions in the 70's and when Jeff finally started receive what was due to him, he didn't share what was due to others. Resulting in an event known as 'the meal' in our house. When Jeff successfully sued Don Arden and received a huge payout for lost royalties and of which around 60% was promised to the band that wasn't Jeff/Bev/Richard equaling at least a million each... But ended up being announced at the meal as £5k and that was the beginning of the end.. And Jeff still worked with Don after that as well. Such is the music business. I guess very late 70's. Indeed, showbiz is very dirty to the bone. But so are places where the little guys who make this world go around work, like me. I've just texted somebody the date of the meal... May be a while to get the answer. It was definitely post-OOTB. Mik was there I've just been told... So it's likely that Hugh and Mel were. My answer has just come back between 77 and 80. Doesn't narrow it down too much. But def post OOTB.. And maybe post Discovery. Anyway none of this can be stated online... Because it will gin back and forth for eons with no resolution. The simple matter of the fact is that it's easy to see that ELO as it is now bears little resemblance to the ELO of the 70's. That's not to say it's better or worse, it's a very different thing. But its obvious to anybody with half a brain that Jeff did not do any of those big things back in the day by himself.. Either in creation or composition... He used people intensely in the creation process. It's so utterly ridiculous to suggest otherwise...
Well actually fans have taken anecdotal evidence about a couple of songs that have been widely reported that Jeff did it all... One is Don't Bring Me Down.. Which Mack told the story of its creation in the studio overnight... Well that comes from one article with Mack I believe.. That Jeff did it on occasion.. And is largely true. Another is 'The Lights Go Down' which is largely the result of Jeff's demo that survived almost intact.. There were likely a couple of others... Which is fine.. But fans extrapolated from that the rest of the vast output of ELO was therefore the same story which obviously they were not.. The reasons those stories exist is because they were outliers, an exception to the rule, and story worthy. Fans make that sound like he did it all the time.. Which is daft. Jeff did play some keys and piano yes.. But frankly he isn't that good.. Richard is an exceptional keyboard player, and Jeff is bashout chords player. It's pretty evident from his later work that he is a basic piano player at best. And it's well known that Mel Gale played the piano on Wild West Hero. Because he was better than all of them. Mel Gale was a wizard pianist. You know the honky-tonk piano at start of Wild West Hero.. That's Mel. If you look at live videos of Wild West Hero and Roll Over Beethoven you'll see Mel switch to piano in some shots. Tandy was exceptional though.. And there is zero chance that Jeff could develop those lines. He was able to recreate them years later using the technology we have now.. Cause you can play it in step by step on a sequencer.. But back in the day.. No way. Well it's significant that the strengths that the players had are absolutely evident when they were involved.. It's abundantly clear when Louis was involved. Of which Jeff has tried to take credit for before.. And there is absolutely no way he composed those sections. When you hear other things that Louis has composed (not just orchestrated) it's perfectly clear who wrote that side of things. That was all Louis. Jeff has actually been on record saying that he and Richard arranged it all. Which is bull. He's like this because ELO Pt 2 got up his nose. And since then has been consistently blanking the former members and their contributions. Well if that band was in existence now it would be a different affair.
The famous example is Young at Heart by The Bluebells. At the start of this song there's a violin riff. That the session player (who wasn't a member of the band at all... unlike Kaminski in ELO) was asked to come up with something for the start. And he just improvised that. Years later it was deemed that the violin was so significantly recognizable as a part of that song that he was awarded songwriting credit. Now there is absolutely no way that Mik was dictated to regarding those violin parts on tracks like Livin' Thing. He came up with those, exactly like I've seen him do dozens of times on my dads stuff and ELO Pt 2. And nowadays you would have a songwriting credit. But back then nobody had any education.. The person who got the money was the person who put the claim in.. Now that is actual 'songwriting' which means you would collect publishing royalties which are huge regardless of songwriting, anybody - and that means ANYBODY - who contributed to the recording of a record. i.e. You play an instrument on a track. Really should be on a cut of the actual physical sales of the said record. But no ELO member did. All the contemporary bands of the time had splits... But none of them did.. Even Jeff didn't get any for years. Until they went after Don... Who had pocketed 10's of millions. It would never happen now.. And was rare then... So basically... They didn't receive recording royalties.. When they should have without question.. And they didn't receive publishing royalties.. Which is a different argument as to what constitutes the songwriting. And my argument is that it's clear that many people had significant contributions to the actual writing of those songs... That it should also be an issue..
Never once would anyone have dictacted to Kelly what to play.. It's a ridiculous assumption. Jeff would strum chords.. And Kelly would create everything from there.. Jeff would say what he liked.. But never once did he tell him what notes to play.. That is well known. To suggest otherwise is absurd.. Otherwise you just wouldn't have any musicians there. He has ridden long and far on the wave of those albums which he categorically did not create single handed.
Funny thing with Zoom... I didn't really like it when it came out... Me and dad listened to it, and we both were a bit underwhelmed by it.. Short Pop songs with no real large scale vision... But over the years I've really warmed to it... And actually I rate it very highly now... I just had to listen to it with different expectations.
Well yeah.. I have never had a problem with him using the name. I actually think the moniker Jeff Lynne's ELO is a mark of respect to the original lineups. Makes a distinction that it's something new. And things change. ELO now is a different thing. And that's fine. It is a bit daft I agree to call the album ELO in any shape when there is little of the original 'idea' of what ELO was supposed to be.. But meh.. it doesn't fuss me that much. Well I think the impetus was really about the Hyde Park show last year.. And because that happened, there was a new brand born, and it would be sensible to start using it. I don't think he had any intention of recording an album under the name. All indications are that he was going to do a Jeff Lynne album. Then scrapped that due to the massive response to the gig. So it does make sense kinda. What would have been better entirely is if he had written those songs.. and then got Mike Stevens involved.. and Donovan and a Richard Tandy and actually made it a new ELO. Give it a year or two and it would've been a proper band. I mean he could've just rerecorded them all.. Cause apparently that's what he always did.
Well considering the chap playing with them now still ****s up the bass parts, I'm pretty sure they're all Kelly's bits too.. And you can't mistake Mik's violining.. He could outplay all the orchestral players you could hire in his hey day. It's just Jeff as usual.. His modus operandi has always been that it's not good enough for him to win.. Everyone else has to lose. Pity really.. Cause he comes across in interviews as a humble guy with no ego... But those that know him.. Know that's a complete act. He actually isn't a bad guy if you're on side with him... But he is ruthless as well.
And I've made it clear to everyone.. I'll be friends with anyone regardless of their opinions - with one exception.. If anybody says 'Jeff is ELO' or agrees with somebody saying - or likes a statement that says it.. then they're gone.."